Return of Reckoning

I've always thought grip of fear should break on 'direct damage,' in orvr it's still going toi break 90% of the time
as it stands now, the only time people ever actually get cc'd are when you trigger it as you die so the Order that just killed you can freeze in place over your dead body for 2 seconds

and having to be close to target, you can get off a gloomburst on rooted target and start the next cast of i guess artic blast to snare, melee classes all have their de-snares anyways to close the distance, why not make them use it in situation such as this

would give solo sorcs better chance vs melee, something i'm not really concerned about as much as I vastly prefer AoE spec at max level.

teiloh wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:48 pm Paralyzing Nightmares does respectable damage and has a really long duration root. Destro hated it when it was on the Knight and the Knight still builds M3 slower than Sorc does M4, even if they don't slot their own morale boost and just get it from a Shammy.

1. Nothing is faster then AM pump + M3 in game
2. SM M2 does the job as well
3. All classes have valid M3s or M4s

Lets comapre sorcs to bws or at leas other ranged dps keeping focus on damage and util. My personal pref would be to keep whole wb aoe meta discussion in a separeate thread but that is me.

Facts (Single Target spec)

• sorcs benefit from having 2 or so more abilities that it can debuff

• Sorcs has fewer insta and quick cast spells

• Sorcs have less proc damage compared to a bw

• Sorcs have Manic Obsession that can be usefull if you ambush and have time to set up a MEGA-rotaion undisturbed. In most other cases the lost GCD negates the damage gain (10%)

• Sorcs has less util, no insta snare (2s), no ista rkd (1s disarm), no self clns, no M3 full clns

• Many sorcs will slot FM M2 over the group wide 80% damage reduction M2 (outside of WB play)

2 or more abilities, but they're both very key abilities in the main rotation. Destro can easily drop your Spirit resists *and* corp resists to 0 even if you're in full Sov from range, Order simply can't do that. It's -250ish for elemental at most, leaving the enemy with something like 25-30% resists still. Then Tzeentch's Talon can stack on top of all that.

BW instas are all weaker than Sorcs. Detonate is trash while Ice Spikes is A+-tier, Backdraft can be fiddly to use and is high in the tree. With Flashfire you do have a point, it's very good. Sorcs also have very good abilities however.

Less proc damage, but this is all built into tactics. Sorcs also have tons of excellent tactics. If you consider for example BW proc damage to be very good, consider that Tapping the Dark can effectively proc a shield every second that absorbs 3x as much as a tick of Wildfire in a second, or whatever Frozen Touch's ICD is.

Agree that Manic Obsession sucks and doesn't feel great to use, but the Wizard utility is largely extraneous except for the rare case where you're chasing down solos and runners and want to pin them down for a zerg. Withering Heat is rarely used in larger scale fights.


Sorc at first doesn't seem like it's on par for DPS, but they do have several powerful niche abilities and group-enhanced combos that make their bread-and-butter rotations far stronger and usable than the BW, especially in group+ fights.

teiloh wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:20 pm 2 or more abilities, but they're both very key abilities in the main rotation. Destro can easily drop your Spirit resists *and* corp resists to 0 even if you're in full Sov from range, Order simply can't do that. It's -250ish for elemental at most, leaving the enemy with something like 25-30% resists still. Then Tzeentch's Talon can stack on top of all that.

BW instas are all weaker than Sorcs. Detonate is trash while Ice Spikes is A+-tier, Backdraft can be fiddly to use and is high in the tree. With Flashfire you do have a point, it's very good. Sorcs also have very good abilities however.

Less proc damage, but this is all built into tactics. Sorcs also have tons of excellent tactics. If you consider for example BW proc damage to be very good, consider that Tapping the Dark can effectively proc a shield every second that absorbs 3x as much as a tick of Wildfire in a second, or whatever Frozen Touch's ICD is.

Agree that Manic Obsession sucks and doesn't feel great to use, but the Wizard utility is largely extraneous except for the rare case where you're chasing down solos and runners and want to pin them down for a zerg. Withering Heat is rarely used in larger scale fights.


Sorc at first doesn't seem like it's on par for DPS, but they do have several powerful niche abilities and group-enhanced combos that make their bread-and-butter rotations far stronger and usable than the BW, especially in group+ fights.

Can you be more specific?

What scale are we talking about? And what abilities/rotations?

You're also mentioning group setups. What classes?

Caduceus wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:48 pm
Can you be more specific?

What scale are we talking about? And what abilities/rotations?

You're also mentioning group setups. What classes?

Simply put, Sorc getting the benefit of Magus debuff is huge. In the best situation for Order they have a Knight giving Destro -250 resists, Magus will spam 370-380+ all over the map. This on its own is a difference of 15-20% damage (depending on your targets resists). Then Destro's CD reducers are superior so you get your abilities up faster (and your healers get some abilities faster as well). Choppa and BO can just activate it any time, SM needs to close, then use 3rd in chain attack, and then it has to land. Often the range on Whispering Winds is too low to catch the whole group.

Sorc AOE rotation with Chillwind/IW or if you're playing at range GON + Shadow Knives + SS or ticks of Pit or whatever is going to hit a ton harder because of that alone.

So you think Single Target sorc should be balanced by magus abilities?

What about 70% of the time or more when none are present?

How about no?

teiloh wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:59 am
Simply put, Sorc getting the benefit of Magus debuff is huge. In the best situation for Order they have a Knight giving Destro -250 resists, Magus will spam 370-380+ all over the map. This on its own is a difference of 15-20% damage (depending on your targets resists). Then Destro's CD reducers are superior so you get your abilities up faster (and your healers get some abilities faster as well). Choppa and BO can just activate it any time, SM needs to close, then use 3rd in chain attack, and then it has to land. Often the range on Whispering Winds is too low to catch the whole group.

Sorc AOE rotation with Chillwind/IW or if you're playing at range GON + Shadow Knives + SS or ticks of Pit or whatever is going to hit a ton harder because of that alone.

I see what you're saying, but there's a few issues with this line of reasoning.

The first is the idea that Sorc AoE is all Spirit damage. This is simply not the case. A large portion of the Sorc's AoE damage is in fact Corporeal.
Ice Spikes (+Chilling Gusts) is a staple of Sorc AoE and one of its heavy hitters. It deals Corporeal damage, and so does Chilling Gusts.
However, the quintessence of Sorc AoE damage is easily overlooked; Frozen Touch with Frozen Fury. Again, Corporeal damage. Frozen Touch/Fury essentially adds a Corporeal component to every Spirit-based ability. Many spells, including Gloom of Night, would not be worth the cast if they didn't proc Frozen Touch.

Secondly, CD reduction isn't as great for Sorc as it is for some other classes. A single Waaagh or Chop Fasta can reduce the cooldown on Infernal Wave to zero, assuming one specs for it. That's not bad, but that's also all it enables. Besides, even a spec built around IW will want to incorporate Ice Spikes simply because of it's superior damage, so the benefit one gains from having no cooldown on IW is minor.
Also, last I played my SM the range on Whispering Winds was 100ft, just like the BO's Waaagh and the Choppa's Chop Fasta. The fact that it requires Perfect Balance is a moot point, since SM can use Sudden Shift in combination with other abilities to get into Perfect Balance instantly.

Thirdly, I'm not sure what to think of those rotations. They're not ones I would use, personally. Neither benefit hugely from Spirit resistance reduction (Ice Spikes and Shadow Knives are both Corporeal damage, for one) or CD reduction, so I don't see how they support your argument in the way you seem to imply.

Lastly, before your last post I had the impression you were talking about Sorc ST damage, but now it is clear you are talking about AoE. This makes your position a rather odd one, since you seem to be arguing that Sorc and BW AoE are on par with each other. I think it is obvious that they are not and a quick glance at the tactics that are available to both classes can confirm this. BW has a wide selection of tactics that can directly increase the AoE damage potential of nearly all of their AoE spells. Sorc only has one such tactic in its entire arsenal; Frozen Fury.

In summary, whether BW AoE beats Sorc AoE is, as far as I know, not up for debate. It is obvious that the BW is better in this regard. Your arguments to the contrary feel construed and unpracticable to a degree that make me hesitate whether you have ever put these things into practice yourself.

Caduceus wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:42 am Secondly, CD reduction isn't as great for Sorc as it is for some other classes. A single Waaagh or Chop Fasta can reduce the cooldown on Infernal Wave to zero, assuming one specs for it.

That's not true? I am very certain that IW's CD can not be reduced lower that the 5 sec the tactic reduces it to. The button shows no CD, but the ability can't be used until the 5 sec are over. If a Choppa or BO could enable Sorc to spam IW, that would be amazing.

I agree 100% on many people arguing here not actually playing Sorc and simply constructing arguments because they think It will prevent a buff though.

ScumFM wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:08 pm
That's not true? I am very certain that IW's CD can not be reduced lower that the 5 sec the tactic reduces it to. The button shows no CD, but the ability can't be used until the 5 sec are over.

You are probably correct.

That explains the issues I've had with trying it out. I figured it was caused by something on my end.

If CD reduction indeed doesn't apply to IW then teiloh's argument that CD reductions on Destro side compensate for subpar AoE is off the table.

It was changes long time ago so you don't get an Infernal Wave spam with every BO cooldown reduction.

5 seconds is the best what you cna have, despite ability on taskbar showing 0 seconds with CF / WA...