Return of Reckoning

Tesq wrote:there is no need to separate queue , mixed queue are k, just make server automatically put pugs in sc every x loose at rotation to give pugs a pause from premade.

if i understood aza correctly it, groups ARE ALREADY matched against groups and solo against solo if enough population is there. Just 6vs6 sc should get a higher priority when matching group queuers prbly so its less group+solo vs group+solo but more group vs group and solo vs solo.

Epo wrote:

peterthepan3 wrote:Misconception that premades are made to farm pugs needs to be done away with. Very insulting. Pugs should have their own scenario or two, just with reduced rewards. Would be good.

I'm sorry, I really don't wanna start an argument over this again, but why less rewards? Nobody is entitled to less or more rewards than another person because of their preference on playstyle. I'm genuinely curious as to why you think this.

easier enemies, less reward, just like 6man casual dungeon has less reward then 24man superraid.

Tiggo wrote:

easier enemies, less reward, just like 6man casual dungeon has less reward then 24man superraid.

This a thousand times. If you want to get the best rewards/gear in other mmo's (PvE) you HAVE to form a group, get in Vent/TS, follow directions, coordinate, and improve your gameplay (can't really be carried due to several boss mechanics; you **** up = whole raid dies). How many guilds cleared Sunwell in The Burning Crusade? How many guilds cleared 40man Naxx? Not every PvE player gets to clear all content/get the best gear.

I think something similar should apply to PvP games. You want more emblems/medallions/whatever? Join premade-only-SCs. You want casual fun/earn your rewards at a slower pace? Join the pug-only-SC.

Okay, I may be wrong about ALL premades willing to farm randoms but I'm still sure that there's a lot of people who are really on it.

Scrilian, you openly state that a huge chunk of playerbase shouldn't have a say on this matter which is wrong by default. You're saying that enforcing a certain playstyle to a vast group of people is okay.

Have you noticed that I never said anything about forcing grouped people to play solo. That's because the game should be fun no matter if you're solo or grouped. I'm okay with premades, I just feel like they should have a prio to be in their own playground.

It looks like "I play hard so everyone else should do the same or their success isn't justified". No, they shouldn't — it's a game, not a job. Even if you play 30 mins a day and don't get to know anyone it still should be fun.

I'm okay with reduced rewards also — it's pretty fair.

Tiggo wrote:

Tesq wrote:there is no need to separate queue , mixed queue are k, just make server automatically put pugs in sc every x loose at rotation to give pugs a pause from premade.

if i understood aza correctly it, groups ARE ALREADY matched against groups and solo against solo if enough population is there. Just 6vs6 sc should get a higher priority when matching group queuers prbly so its less group+solo vs group+solo but more group vs group and solo vs solo.

and that's ok i mean pugs only should be put by server ( not separate queue allowed) into a pugs sc after x roll stomp by premades happen.

to give some pause to pugs in the case there is just 1 premade on 1 side kill roll stompt the bugs on the other side.

Tesq wrote:

Tiggo wrote:

Tesq wrote:there is no need to separate queue , mixed queue are k, just make server automatically put pugs in sc every x loose at rotation to give pugs a pause from premade.

if i understood aza correctly it, groups ARE ALREADY matched against groups and solo against solo if enough population is there. Just 6vs6 sc should get a higher priority when matching group queuers prbly so its less group+solo vs group+solo but more group vs group and solo vs solo.

and that's ok i mean pugs only should be put by server ( not separate queue allowed) into a pugs sc after x roll stomp by premades happen.

to give some pause to pugs in the ase there is just 1 premade on 1 side kill roll stompt the bugs on the other side.

this is really to complicated tesq. just let the 6vs6 sc be priorised and with an easy qol fix lets see how experience for solo and group players improved before implementing some very artificial and complicated "stomped by premade" qualifications ...

Sorry separation and different reward ladders feels like steps in the wrong direction

Penril wrote:This a thousand times. If you want to get the best rewards/gear in other mmo's (PvE) you HAVE to form a group, get in Vent/TS, follow directions, coordinate, and improve your gameplay (can't really be carried due to several boss mechanics; you **** up = whole raid dies). How many guilds cleared Sunwell in The Burning Crusade? How many guilds cleared 40man Naxx? Not every PvE player gets to clear all content/get the best gear.

I think something similar should apply to PvP games. You want more emblems/medallions/whatever? Join premade-only-SCs. You want casual fun/earn your rewards at a slower pace? Join the pug-only-SC.

You are making a false equivalence here.

First, the content you mention requires a group formed to even enter, Wow didnt even let you enter the instance if you were not in a raid group, second, anyone who formed a pug group and cleared it, recieved exactly the same gear as the most elite super organized guilds.

And before anyone mentions the later implementation of Raid finder, this was intended to be a easier version of the raids, thats why it had lower Item level gear, because it was designed to be easier.

So the only way you would have a point with it is if it was objectively easier, and no, it being pugs vs pugs doesnt make it easier, to play in pug vs pug vs premade vs premade.

Since the difficulty is heavily volatile, there is pugs you can bet your ass you will never win and there is premade vs premade that you can afk in and still destroy the opposition, the equivalence just does not exist.

So i dont see this ever being a good idea.

bloodi wrote:

Penril wrote:This a thousand times. If you want to get the best rewards/gear in other mmo's (PvE) you HAVE to form a group, get in Vent/TS, follow directions, coordinate, and improve your gameplay (can't really be carried due to several boss mechanics; you **** up = whole raid dies). How many guilds cleared Sunwell in The Burning Crusade? How many guilds cleared 40man Naxx? Not every PvE player gets to clear all content/get the best gear.

I think something similar should apply to PvP games. You want more emblems/medallions/whatever? Join premade-only-SCs. You want casual fun/earn your rewards at a slower pace? Join the pug-only-SC.

You are making a false equivalence here.

First, the content you mention requires a group formed to even enter, Wow didnt even let you enter the instance if you were not in a raid group, second, anyone who formed a pug group and cleared it, recieved exactly the same gear as the most elite super organized guilds.

And before anyone mentions the later implementation of Raid finder, this was intended to be a easier version of the raids, thats why it had lower Item level gear, because it was designed to be easier.

So the only way you would have a point with it is if it was objectively easier, and no, it being pugs vs pugs doesnt make it easier, to play in pug vs pug vs premade vs premade.

Since the difficulty is heavily volatile, there is pugs you can bet your ass you will never win and there is premade vs premade that you can afk in and still destroy the opposition, the equivalence just does not exist.

if this is true, the whole discussion ends here and nothing has to change as it doesnt matter if you face premade or pug. Some you win some you lose.

bloodi wrote:
You are making a false equivalence here.

First, the content you mention requires a group formed to even enter, Wow didnt even let you enter the instance if you were not in a raid group, second, anyone who formed a pug group and cleared it, recieved exactly the same gear as the most elite super organized guilds.

Forming a group and entering a Dungeon/Raid is the easy part. People did (do) it all the time in WoW, even casuals who dislike talking to other people. But if they are not geared, not in TS, don't even know the fights... they will keep wiping and go broke on repairs and eventually disband with ZERO rewards (in fact, they are poorer). Huge difference with joining a serious guild with people who know all the fights and coordinate and explain everything in TS. These guys have no problen farming those raids, even the hardest ones.

Yes: If the pugs cleared the Heroic-mode super-hard 100-man raid, they got the same rewards as the most elite super organized guilds. But this pretty much never happened (at least, before Mysts of Pandaria).

bloodi wrote:
So the only way you would have a point with it is if it was objectively easier, and no, it being pugs vs pugs doesnt make it easier, to play in pug vs pug vs premade vs premade.

Since the difficulty is heavily volatile, there is pugs you can bet your ass you will never win and there is premade vs premade that you can afk in and still destroy the opposition, the equivalence just does not exist.

So i dont see this ever being a good idea.

I disagree. In a Pug vs Pug fight, i'd say your chances of winning are always around 50%. In a Premade vs Premade, it depends on skill level of your enemies. My premade will have 80% chances of winning against XXXX premade, but 30% against YYYY. So what happens if one night i only get fights against YYYY? I will have a harder time in my SC's than any Pugs will have in theirs.