Return of Reckoning

Uchoo wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:49 am

detrap wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:50 am

Ad Hominem logical fallacy. Try again and post evidence this time.

Is there a difference between "your experience" and "your beliefs"?

I'm pretty sure I just gathered a bunch of numbers from different people and had them posted. In fact, I've got another geared Knight about to post. ???? You done?

Are you going to post an actual retort to the information provided or no? You have your own experience and understanding of the skills and their usage. He gave a critical take specifically on the numbers you posted. Your response is lacking any significant substance aside from a fallacy claim that's hardly the basis of his statement.

kmark101 wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:01 am

detrap wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:50 am ...lots of random stuffs...

Dude wtf you are assuming that a knight runs with 6 active auras and 8 tactics all slotted and every spec line full skills/tactics available... just stop it. You can't do all those crap at once, you have to make hard choices..

You are making a lot of assumptions there. Yes you can run a conquest build with at least two auras from the trees. With sov you can pick up 2 plus focus mending. It's an overkill example but we can up to 8 auras to switch in and out of during a fight, you don't have 8 tactic slots but surely you pick the preferred one for the warband out of the 5 sets you organised before the encounter and switch accordingly when you are out of combat. But I didn't say any of this initially. Obviously you will have less choice the more you go up a secondary tree. I mentioned 2 tactics, maybe three at the most.

How many knights here actually switch auras and tactics during a fight? It's kind of our mechanic...

wargrimnir wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:11 am

Uchoo wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:49 am

detrap wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:50 am

Ad Hominem logical fallacy. Try again and post evidence this time.

Is there a difference between "your experience" and "your beliefs"?

I'm pretty sure I just gathered a bunch of numbers from different people and had them posted. In fact, I've got another geared Knight about to post. ???? You done?

Are you going to post an actual retort to the information provided or no? You have your own experience and understanding of the skills and their usage. He gave a critical take specifically on the numbers you posted. Your response is lacking any significant substance aside from a fallacy claim that's hardly the basis of his statement.

True. As I somewhat jokingly stated earlier, I would be willing to sit and discuss all of this for 80 dollars. The point is, it's a long conversation and I don't want to clutter. The comparison of the utility provided by the 2 classes is very important, indeed. I have a strong understanding of that. I'm gathering a stronger understanding of the damage of the Knight, which I don't have the strongest understanding of, and then I'll make a post. I plan to have a discussion with a few knights I know about our ideas after we have gathered all the data and analyzed, then we will post this to the public and talk to staff.

So no, I will not be responding to his info at this time because it would just be posting a ton of info challenging his belief system and create pages of back and forth debate. Also, a lot of the stuff from a lot of posters is circumstantial, opinion pieces, etcs; which are useful when also presented with evidence. For now, evidence is the focus.

Final Edit: I will mention that I have read all of Detrap's posts and he has said some things that I find very interesting. He seems to be a very passionate player and some of the ideas presented are unique.

Preface: I play a KotBS currently RR 81. I got my warlord and bloodlord done effectively at the same time (pve is a plague on this world) and waited to slot MS for when I felt the damage would be impactful enough to drop another tactic. Otherwise, I was playing as a UTILITY tank assisting my small group. Sometimes I join a /5 for cities other times I wait at the door in a 6 man and don't get in....

Auras I primarily run are - GYR, SF, TG (we can sit here debating which auras are better to run all day long). All I can tell you is that I'm not going to run the holy trinity due to my personal preference from playing and from listening to what my teammates want out of me. Here is why I value the auras I run:

To Glory - I constantly hear about DPS characters being AP starved and any boost to their AP will be more damage than I can ever output. The same is true for the enemy team. The less AP they have the less buttons they get to press. Similarly, I can now press my buttons more frequently allowing for some assistance in DPS or for the majority of my tanking game play, controlling the fight.

GYR - buffs resists = less damage taken, debuffs resists on enemy = more damage taken. Someone once said something about layering defenses... It's better to have multiple layers of defense rather than one single high defensive stat.

Stay Focused - Dropping Stay Focused or not utilizing Focused Mending is a cardinal sin in my book. There's no changing my mind on this one. It's a FREE 15% healing for your group mates. You could argue that the devs could strip away all the knight's abilities and they will still be useful as a guardbot + FM.

Situations you could swap out SF is when you don't have a healer. Then you can run toughness or OYG (before the fix, RIP). Very rarely will I EVER run the STR Aura (basically reserved for running solo, but why waste my time not killing anyone). People are running pots and I personally don't value the reduction in the enemies STR as much as some other people might. If there are MULTIPLE knights in a group, run all the auras. Feel free to even run the outgoing heal debuff. Sit on healers if you run this otherwise it's pointless.

Builds I typically run:

https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... ,3094,3073

https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... ,3094,3073

My renown build:

https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/r ... ;0;4;3;0;0

Liniments typically run: STR + Wounds // Wounds + Ini // STR + MP. It all depends on the group composition.

Gear in videos below (yes it's a dummy, no I don't care):

WARLORD + SENT BOOTS & RING

liniment is STR + MP

Weapon = Bloodlord for these purposes (generally I run Nightless so I don't die to guard damage).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChR0Th632WQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQXBGpVbJJU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAvVwPQdwNU

We can sit here all day listing out every ability all the classes have at their disposal, but can't use at the same time. The removal of MS effectively crippled the knight's ability to apply meaningful damage to a target to actually assist in killing it. You are now back to hitting like a wet noodle. Running Focused Offense is committing suicide, so I won't be running that tactic. My problem with the REMOVAL of MS was that it was removed rather than toned down if it was deemed to be so OP. If there was a note that went along with it like "we are removing MS due to it being OP, but we are looking into the class' dmg output capabilities and will be addressing it in the future TM. The knight may possibly be the most boring class to play, especially with the removal of a tactic that made it feel like you finally graduated from kindergarten to grade 1.

detrap wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:50 am

Spoiler:

Says the person that is charging $80 for a course about tanks and understands every tank in the game yet also admits not having much numbers to prove anything significant.

Against a DoK, your damage is great if you have an armour debuff, also in a six man ST party you won't be the one being detaunted. SM's and IB's have better tools to take down doks but knights have up to 4 interrupts to stop them from casting heals for the warband plus the outgoing heal debuff that stacks with any incoming heal debuff used on other targets. The setback aura works best with a cast time increaser from a bw or sm. Not even a mdps can solo a good DoK after it's been detaunted let alone a BG.

Nothing of what I mentioned about abilities is of my own beliefs when I'm just stating what is already on the tooltips and from my own experience from using them. If they buff the knight damage from all the crying the past week, I'll be a very happy player. But would still prefer an aura rework (esp removing the cooldowns, possibly GCD too) before any ST buff might be given back to chosens and knights.

For single target party yes BG can be better, but for the warband, no there is big differences. Again you are comparing 1v1. Dps spec'd Blackguards I've encountered don't have much in the way of mitigation and I've hit some for well over 1k on a SM. Whereas the knight can reduce incoming damage and buff toughness (which mitigates all forms of damage), wounds and initiative greatly. But you know all that right?

Dps specked BG can have around 800-1k toughness thanks to uncleansable 100% uptime Terrifying Foe tact, while dishing tons of damage - i know because i have one, without gear and at 60rr.
RoR.builders - Black Guard
Even in conq i was able to solo 80rr WL while laughing in his face, same happened to poor 80rr slayer (but slayer happened around 2 years ago, so equip ma have fixed this), they literally had 0 chance.

Whereas the knight can reduce incoming damage and buff toughness (which mitigates all forms of damage), wounds and initiative greatly. But you know all that right?

Vigilance is shatterable, reduce you dmg output, lasts 10 sec and has a hefty 30 sec cd .
M2 Emp's Champion lasts 15 seconds and all knights worth their share use Distracting Bellow instead.
RF buffs ~160 ini/tough on parry (eer... Coordinated Strike tactic?) and is shatterable

Also what are the 4 interrupts that knight have?
1)taunt
2)vicious slash
3) knock/ heavens fury(cause they provide same immunity)?
4) Punt?

Chosen Numbers for Reference:

Mirroring Beer's build: 1100 Str, Bloodlord Weapon, No Sov Crit Damage, Focused Offense

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png

forsa wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:25 am

detrap wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:50 am

Spoiler:

Says the person that is charging $80 for a course about tanks and understands every tank in the game yet also admits not having much numbers to prove anything significant.

Against a DoK, your damage is great if you have an armour debuff, also in a six man ST party you won't be the one being detaunted. SM's and IB's have better tools to take down doks but knights have up to 4 interrupts to stop them from casting heals for the warband plus the outgoing heal debuff that stacks with any incoming heal debuff used on other targets. The setback aura works best with a cast time increaser from a bw or sm. Not even a mdps can solo a good DoK after it's been detaunted let alone a BG.

Nothing of what I mentioned about abilities is of my own beliefs when I'm just stating what is already on the tooltips and from my own experience from using them. If they buff the knight damage from all the crying the past week, I'll be a very happy player. But would still prefer an aura rework (esp removing the cooldowns, possibly GCD too) before any ST buff might be given back to chosens and knights.

For single target party yes BG can be better, but for the warband, no there is big differences. Again you are comparing 1v1. Dps spec'd Blackguards I've encountered don't have much in the way of mitigation and I've hit some for well over 1k on a SM. Whereas the knight can reduce incoming damage and buff toughness (which mitigates all forms of damage), wounds and initiative greatly. But you know all that right?

Dps specked BG can have around 800-1k toughness thanks to uncleansable 100% uptime Terrifying Foe tact, while dishing tons of damage - i know because i have one, without gear and at 60rr.
RoR.builders - Black Guard
Even in conq i was able to solo 80rr WL while laughing in his face, same happened to poor 80rr slayer (but slayer happened around 2 years ago, so equip ma have fixed this), they literally had 0 chance.

Whereas the knight can reduce incoming damage and buff toughness (which mitigates all forms of damage), wounds and initiative greatly. But you know all that right?

Vigilance is shatterable, reduce you dmg output, lasts 10 sec and has a hefty 30 sec cd .
M2 Emp's Champion lasts 15 seconds and all knights worth their share use Distracting Bellow instead.
RF buffs ~160 ini/tough on parry (eer... Coordinated Strike tactic?) and is shatterable

Also what are the 4 interrupts that knight have?
1)taunt
2)vicious slash
3) knock/ heavens fury(cause they provide same immunity)?
4) Punt?

DPS species BG's I run into for city run heal debuff and detaunt bypass.

Never noticed my vigilance being shattered, very rare from my experience. Usually other buffs get shattered before that and I don't usually open with vigilance. A tank cannot choose what enchantment to strip. Same applies for runefang, maybe in a duel but not in a warband fight. Morales used are situational, there is no need to use DB all the time, in orvr, maybe city shield wall can be better than an M4. All situational. Was just making a point that Knights have high mitigation potential as 2h and can keep pumping out the debuffs. Their auras cannot be shattered so it's a big plus side for them also.

A tank shouldn't have an issue against a mdps 1v1 or 1vX, but a struggle if it's against a good one. Using that example you used, a knight could run Emperors champion over DB for duels.

Yes those 4 can all be used consecutively as interrupts, the kd/stun is the only one needed to be spec'd for.

Uchoo wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:26 am

wargrimnir wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:11 am

Uchoo wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:49 am

Ad Hominem logical fallacy. Try again and post evidence this time.

Is there a difference between "your experience" and "your beliefs"?

I'm pretty sure I just gathered a bunch of numbers from different people and had them posted. In fact, I've got another geared Knight about to post. ???? You done?

Are you going to post an actual retort to the information provided or no? You have your own experience and understanding of the skills and their usage. He gave a critical take specifically on the numbers you posted. Your response is lacking any significant substance aside from a fallacy claim that's hardly the basis of his statement.

True. As I somewhat jokingly stated earlier, I would be willing to sit and discuss all of this for 80 dollars. The point is, it's a long conversation and I don't want to clutter. The comparison of the utility provided by the 2 classes is very important, indeed. I have a strong understanding of that. I'm gathering a stronger understanding of the damage of the Knight, which I don't have the strongest understanding of, and then I'll make a post. I plan to have a discussion with a few knights I know about our ideas after we have gathered all the data and analyzed, then we will post this to the public and talk to staff.

So no, I will not be responding to his info at this time because it would just be posting a ton of info challenging his belief system and create pages of back and forth debate. Also, a lot of the stuff from a lot of posters is circumstantial, opinion pieces, etcs; which are useful when also presented with evidence. For now, evidence is the focus.

Final Edit: I will mention that I have read all of Detrap's posts and he has said some things that I find very interesting. He seems to be a very passionate player and some of the ideas presented are unique.

It's part of a healthy discussion. Thank you for sharing those screenies.

detrap wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:04 am

Spoiler:

DPS species BG's I run into for city run heal debuff and detaunt bypass.

Never noticed my vigilance being shattered, very rare from my experience. Usually other buffs get shattered before that and I don't usually open with vigilance. A tank cannot choose what enchantment to strip. Same applies for runefang, maybe in a duel but not in a warband fight. Morales used are situational, there is no need to use DB all the time, in orvr, maybe city shield wall can be better than an M4. All situational. Was just making a point that Knights have high mitigation potential as 2h and can keep pumping out the debuffs. Their auras cannot be shattered so it's a big plus side for them also.

A tank shouldn't have an issue against a mdps 1v1 or 1vX, but a struggle if it's against a good one. Using that example you used, a knight could run Emperors champion over DB for duels.

Yes those 4 can all be used consecutively as interrupts, the kd/stun is the only one needed to be spec'd for.

I was looking form party/wb point of view, duels are irrelevant (also each and every mdd/rdd can run away from KN)
So again Emp Chosen is impossible(or plain stupid) to slot, all blessings get shattered just because there are lots of people hitting combined with destro cd reducers. I know that from my own experience - you pop Vigil when focused, and any Ch/We with brain just shatters it instantly.
Shieldwall < Bellow 100% of the time (excluding pve) cause the latter helps allies, also it was m3 before for same reason.

Their auras cannot be shattered so it's a big plus side for them also.

Auras are negated by auras/bellows.
In reality kn has only 2 of them (3 is SF, also only 3 tactics + FM), and 99% of time GYR is mandatory due to sorc/magus/bo/sha/ch debuff - so only 1 aura (again most of the time its SS due to amount of debuffs flying in the air or AP if 2 tank is SM with stat steal).
Tactic wise (if you are 2h): FM,+10 crit, SPunt, Rugged/Aoe slow for 6 man.
I can imagine dropping Vigil and going for RF, but you loose knock and AOE stagger does not work same way - its a forum warriors build.

Yes those 4 can all be used consecutively as interrupts, the kd/stun is the only one needed to be spec'd for

This means almost(?) all tanks has 4 interrupts, seriously why is knight special?

Tried the new 2h knight out, just to say i did. "Hey, maybe it's not so bad".



Imagine. Blazing Blade spamming. For elemental damage. ONLY ON THE DOT.

It's okay though cause i had Heavan's Fury ready for pressure.

But seriously guys, just play a different class for now. Literally all tanks have better 2H spec atm (even ******). You can be a good snb for wb and still have fun with a great weapon on ocassions.

Perhaps an exodus of knights will convince the devs of the rod they built for their own back with this folly.