Return of Reckoning

Jaycub wrote:Experimental patch when :^)

I wouldn't mind it, it's an alpha after all.

Azarael wrote:

Jaycub wrote:I don't like the idea of creating an ability which is just a ripoff of the RP/Zealot mechanic, unless im understanding you wrong.

You're understanding me wrong. The mechanic is the first thing to resolve in working out how this class should progress. What I would be asking for is the ability to switch to my vision of the mechanic for personal testing, either via a command or via an actual ability, while leaving the default whatever is decided here.

Well, if you're looking for the community's go-ahead to do what you will with the AM/Shaman's mechanic, I doubt you'll see much opposition. Any meaningful dissent would probably only come out of the woodwork once people have had a chance to play around with any changes a bit.

Besides, anyone that's played AM/Shaman for any length of time past T1 likely gets how useless their current mechanic is most of the time. (Example: Instant AoE knockback can be nice sometimes for healers if it doesn't get mass disrupted, and instant group heal for DPS can be nice sometimes if it doesn't heal for crap)

Im really sceptical, my feeling is if you make hybrid dps/heals work it becomes OP. Im eager to see what proposed changes make it to the final board.

Also the idea of having 3 career mechanic points instead of 5 might make a big difference.

bloodi wrote:The debuff idea didnt work because it was mostly based around stats.

Who would get an am for stat debuffs when a sm/kobts does it naturally while doing everything else.

Yeah I agree, but if they changed these debuffs/Buffs to actually mather it would be a completly different mather wouldn't it?
I'll try to explain. You have a Mastery with basicly a bunch of mini morales with 5 sec cast times and about 30 sec CD. Activating any spell in that Mastery tree will put all other spells in that Mastery on CD.
You use either Heals or DPS to build Mechanic. Mechanic Decrease the cast times of these spells by 1 sec for each MP. When you use one of these powerful debuffs/buffs your Mechanic points resets and all DaGreen and Vaul spells goes on the 30 sec CD.

Morf wrote:Im really sceptical, my feeling is if you make hybrid dps/heals work it becomes OP. Im eager to see what proposed changes make it to the final board.

Also the idea of having 3 career mechanic points instead of 5 might make a big difference.

Depends on the perspective, AM/Shaman are already EZ mode OP in ORvR 1v1 or small scale stuff. But these changes are to bring them closer into the meta for group play, whether that is 6 mans, or in a warband etc... Devs are aware of this when making changes if you look back in some of the posts here.

While I am sure no one has delusions of them every being meta in a 2-2-2 setup because of their hybrid nature, these changes can make them very viable in say a 3dps 2 healer 1 tank setup where they play a RDPS role with off heals and support, or in a 3healer 2 tank 1 dps group where they play the same role but one of the healers is also a grace WP etc... With other changes to the games central mechanics these types of setups could become much more viable and we can start seeing and increase in group variations that are deemed good.

Jaycub wrote:@Az

1 will never happen because DPS AM/Shamanwon't ever be a better pure dps than bw/sw

Same problem with DPS AM atm with them refusing to heal, I see DPS AM's putting out like 4k total healing in an SC often, while im doing more dps than them on top of doing over 50k healing usually which helps a good bit. People on both sides of the equation are refusing to properly use the mechanic or embrace their hybridness.

I don't like the idea of creating an ability which is just a ripoff of the RP/Zealot mechanic, unless im understanding you wrong. DPS AM/Shaman should be specializing in lifetaps and getting the most out of them, while healing AM should be getting something out of the mechanic that isn't just "oh well when I have a free GCD ill throw out a lifetap for giggles then get back to group heal spam" and it should be something that is effective and not just laughed at by a group cleansing DoK or again ending up being such a minor damage output that it's not worth using.

As far as #1 goes I believe he is saying people,need to get ready for boost to AM/shaman dps to make them worthy of the group slot as he does not want useless specs in the game.

There are lots of situations where Hybrids are useful. This is especially true in small man ORVR. ORVR is what this game is about first and foremost. I think the idea that hybrid specs should be viable in competitive 6 vs 6 is a fundamental mistake. Just because it's not a best in group slot spec doesn't make it not viable, but you definitely have to play to your strengths.

It seems to me that the original intent behind hybrid specs was for solo play, and they are already great for that. If you make one char for solo play and anther one for group play, then you don't have a problem.

the thing is that while buffing grace/wrath wp you keep their superior salvation spec untouched while changing shaman/am mechanic you keep their supbar healing tree while trying to help their lifetap and dps trees. And at the end the classes may end with even worste heal tree for the cost of better hybrid game style.
that is the problem for most ppl against hybridizing of shamans/ams

i like very much the idea of shamans/ams being debuffer healers. Not doing some fluf dmg but helping and assisting with important debuffs while zealots/rps be buffer healers that add valuable buffs to their groups. But for this to become true many skills need to be redesigned

Azarael wrote: What some people fail to see is that the game can be rigged such that the off-contribution from a hybrid class, or its synergy with select other classes where applicable, can make it more valuable than a pure - /if/ the game is correctly designed. Warhammer's 2/2/2 mentality shows that it wasn't. The setup is almost forced - you HAVE to have two pure tanks to supply Guard for each DPS, you HAVE to have two pure healers, you HAVE to have two pure DPS.

Then why try to fix a broken mechanic when the game-design itself is faulty, instead of focusing on the pure-aspect first?

Sure, the AM was supposed to be a hybrid. But as you said, the current meta requires pure healers.

So please fix the heal first, and focus on making the hybrids work when you do fundamental changes to the flawed game design...

roadkillrobin wrote:

Nekkma wrote:Fixing Da green and Vaul does not neccessary imply changing the way the entire class plays. Healing shaman is the most fun class I have ever played in any MMO. From a playstyle perspective it is close to perfect. Adjustments should focus on performance without changing the way it plays. At least that is my view.

Well atm it's not wanted in any groups coz the other choise are just better. This is the core problem atm.
Nomather how it plays. Or how fun it is. People wanna win. It's a PVP game after all.
The changes of the class needs to make it more reilible at keep your group up or bring something something to the group that no other class currently have. AM have the exact same issue.
I'll post my sollutions again so i just don't point our the problem.

1: Groupheal and Big heal. The current ones casts to slow, and with no in between group heals like other classes have means that any interupts, setbacks or cast time increase just rapes your team. Solution: Make the groupheal heal 3 times over 2,5sec cast instead of 1 at the end.

2: WP/DoK brings AP to team on heal, very good reiiable heals due to short cast times and good dmg mitigration. RP/Zealot Brings Crit Reduction for team. Relible heals due to good AP Management, Good procs and AP regeneration. AM/Shamans brings nothing but heals Heals and a snare pool. Solution: Give them a tactic that has chance to proc cast time reduction of 1sec on direct heal, Caster will love this buff. Change the current Ressistance Buff to a +5% Parry/Dodge/Disrupt buff.

I actually really like those suggestions

i do think that the meccanic should force you to play hybrid, then reducing your ap /cast time on the next skill basing on points, which would make an hybrid classes via meccanic, but the class would work fine as both pure hybrid so 50/50% or as full dps/healer. It will depend which stats you put on your class

In the specific case
-1-2 point ratio instead 0-1
-20% ap time reduction for every 1 point
-20% cast time reduction for every 1 point

for cast aoe heals the cast time would be using 2 dots + aoe heals

1 dot( 0,5 GCD sec )
1 dot( 0,5 GCD sec )
aoe heals 2,5 sec reduced due 20% x 4 -cast time-> 0.5 sec ( gcd 0,5)

=

2 dot +1 aoe group heal = 1,5 sec

total ap cost (dot = law of conduttivity)

30ap+
30/ points (which due 2-1 ratio are 1)= 24ap+
65/ points (which due 2-1 ratio are 4) =13ap

-"67" ap for 2 dots + 1 aoe group heals vs "125" of atm. ( this would mean you are forced to play hybrid but you are also rewarded with a 50% ap cut)

-"1,5" sec for all rotation with GCD ended vs " 2,5" sec for all rotation atm.( increase points ratio will just make am/shammy faster which is why i was against make their direct heal + hot cast while moving (AM thread)

disclaimer: 1,5 sec vs dok/wp should balance with the spam more = more crit chance.

P.S. i do not re suggest again what i alredy had, just point how i imaged it may a work a meccanic that force you to "play hynrid" but it does not make the class hybrid.