Return of Reckoning

velenne wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:23 pm Better escapes and snares for order, fewer AoE pulls and knockdowns for destro, maybe that's all the endgame the needs?

^ This could be a very good start indeed.

empmoz wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:02 pm I've been playing on this server long enough to remember when Order dominated RvR, with seemingly unbeatable close range BW nuking and slayer aoe spam. Now Destro is learning and and countering the old meta, and making a new meta in the process.

What new meta? BW/Slayer spam is all we have that works. If that is countered by Destro we have nothing else to fall back on and will start losing more....

Oh wait. We're already here.

Kwatchi wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:13 pm

empmoz wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:02 pm I've been playing on this server long enough to remember when Order dominated RvR, with seemingly unbeatable close range BW nuking and slayer aoe spam. Now Destro is learning and and countering the old meta, and making a new meta in the process.

What new meta? BW/Slayer spam is all we have that works. If that is countered by Destro we have nothing else to fall back on and will start losing more....

Oh wait. We're already here.

Time to come up with new strategies then

Omegus wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:50 pm

Spoiler:

tefnaht wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:40 amHalf of dps classes have no place in this close combat aoe spam meta, how they can to organize anything valuable? Reroll? Last 2 armor sets have no analogue in PvE and have no other place to get it. If current statement with afk "no place in wb" classes in some instances is a problem - give other ways for this people to achieve end game gear or make place in wb for them or not blend wb\premade with solo q. And with "no place in wb" bigger for order, not only because class spread in population, but with the count of valuable classes in fraction for that specific setup.

I think, this is not a big problem, all gets theirs progression(just not so "fun"), close combat aoe spam was meta at live and so is here, just more dps classes involved to this, not all, but more. But at live any tokens can be dropped from players(depends on their rr)...

All 6 order and destro DPS classes have a place in city WBs, it's just that for some of those classes you only want 1. A single Engi is often brought along, a single WH (unless doing something very specific it competes with the ASW), 1-2 ASW if running a tight melee train, etc, where-as you can stack up BWs/Slayers/WLs much easier. Hell, some classes like Engi and WH really only have a good place in organised WBs and are kinda a waste in less organised WBs. It seems a lot of players in this thread either don't regularly fight with and/or against good city WBs so don't know what works and what doesn't.

Also, order's main meta for cities at the moment is ST melee train with some cleave support. They do the ST train far better than destro. Throw in some hybrid-spec BWs alternate between AOE pressure and throwing out quick nukes to finish off targets from range and Slayers doing what Slayers do. It works well.

At this moment, algorithm of forming city wb in my guild
- get all slayers who online or in touch and can go online in 10min
- if have free dps slots, add WL's from guild
- if still have slots, add slayers\WL's from alliance
- and still have 1-2 slots? ok... then pick top rr dd from guild with priority BW > Engi > SW\WH

Almost all tanks and healers in guild - KotBS and WP. Just good old warhammer online, where any organised wb was 8 chosen 8 sorc 8 dok, before melee tactic was nerfed and bw\sork slightly "balanced", after that choppas start to be a comparable choice... And I was one of sorc in one from five mirrored wb. Here we have better picture - WL, Mara, Squig represents like frequently choosing options, but still we have Magus, Engi, WE, WH, SW with 1 optional slot. And here some place for "your class is garbage, reroll to meta" - need a law, like in real world, wb must have representation of all classes or have penalty for every missed class. We have 12 classes and 12 bags, -1 class = -1 bag, starts from gold, good enough.

empmoz wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:32 pm Time to come up with new strategies then

Is your hubris so huge that you think the top teams haven't experimented?


Tons of interesting discord conversations going on today. Lots of angry reaction to yesterday's comments but some genuine back and forth as well by players who care about the well being of the game. Two truths can be sifted out so far:

1. Order's competent WB leaders all play within their alliances, leaving no one to organize the bottom tier. The sad fact is a lot of good Order organizers left the game or rerolled Destro in the last 6 months, so there is a void.

2. Skill interaction combos involving CC are very titled to Destro's favour atm, whether certain people want to admit it or not. (eg. FMJ's patented Magus pull into Mara knockdown into 4/5 x GTDC - buggy skill that causes 2nd pull a lot - has been mentioned as an absolutely borken cc combo). Most of this comes from xrealmers' point of view.

Is there a causation or correlation between 1 and 2? /Shrug Only the player base can fix one of these and the devs can fix the other. Or neither will happen and the population will skew and collapse. Not a lot of good will out there right now between the two parties, but hopefully things will calm down and someone will step up to save this ship.

How mysterious.

Kwatchi wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:45 pm

empmoz wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:32 pm Time to come up with new strategies then

Is your hubris so huge that you think the top teams haven't experimented?


Tons of interesting discord conversations going on today. Lots of angry reaction to yesterday's comments but some genuine back and forth as well by players who care about the well being of the game. Two truths can be sifted out so far:

1. Order's competent WB leaders all play within their alliances, leaving no one to organize the bottom tier. The sad fact is a lot of good Order organizers left the game or rerolled Destro in the last 6 months, so there is a void.

2. Skill interaction combos involving CC are very titled to Destro's favour atm, whether certain people want to admit it or not. (eg. FMJ's patented Magus pull into Mara knockdown into 4/5 x GTDC - buggy skill that causes 2nd pull a lot - has been mentioned as an absolutely borken cc combo). Most of this comes from xrealmers' point of view.

Is there a causation or correlation between 1 and 2? /Shrug Only the player base can fix one of these and the devs can fix the other. Or neither will happen and the population will skew and collapse. Not a lot of good will out there right now between the two parties, but hopefully things will calm down and someone will step up to save this ship.

I mean, to be fair, this is what the top Order guild leader has to say in this thread on this very subject of "experimentation":

"Pre-morale nerf destro had a huge advantage. Post morale nerf Order definitely has the advantage.

Win rates simply correlate to the lack of organized players on order and less meta classes that a lot of people want to play. Any other take is just plain ignorance."

The very best/top Order actually agree with destro here and the people who "don't get it" are the disorganized order who are also the same cause of their own issue.

Again, balance is a fair conversation and we can always work towards more realm balance, but let's be fair here overall. Balance won't change bad behavior and organization. To be accurate, what the top order is currently telling you is that even with this "perceived destro CC" advantage, Order is stronger at the moment at top levels of play. I actually think its pretty well balanced myself, but the idea that is heavily biased in destros favor is nothing more than a fever dream.

Foofmonger wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:52 pm I actually think its pretty well balanced myself, but the idea that is heavily biased in destros favor is nothing more than a fever dream.

See the 2nd post of this thread.

velenne wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:48 pm

Foofmonger wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:52 pm I actually think its pretty well balanced myself, but the idea that is heavily biased in destros favor is nothing more than a fever dream.

See the 2nd post of this thread.

Yea sorry I wasn't clear. Not that the win rate isn't biased (we all know that it is) but that "class balance" is biased.

Just to recap if we look at the people in this thread and their opinions:

These are the groups of people who view the "city win rate bias" as being an "organizational issue":

1. Most of Destro (obviously)
2. The top people from multiple top order guilds (Montauge, LBL, TUP). Edit: I said leaders prior in error, I was referring to bombling, who is a member of LBL. I don't know Rolgrim's opinion as he hasn't posted it.
3. The developers.

There are these groups of people who view the "city win rate bias" as being a "class balance issues":

1. The unorganized order who doesn't win cities.

I'm personally more or less done with this discussion and I'm happy with where we've landed. We investigated the issue, have had a long discussion on the topic, and I believe we've isolated a variety of steps that can be taken to rectify (which some do include class balance, but it's unlikely to actually heavily change win rates without a change in organization). We have a general good consensus on the nature of the issue and what can be done to resolve, and frankly, the people who still don't get it are the same people who are literally causing the issue with their own lack of organization and planning.

Until the order who can't win cities decides to take a deep hard introspective look at how they play this game and how much effort they are willing to put in to win, nothing will change. If you want to start winning cities on a personal level, start joining bigger guilds, getting organized, spend time in discord discussing strategies, go and test things out in the lakes with 24 man wbs, etc... If you don't do this, how do you think you can compete with opposing players who put that effort in?

Just to be clear, I know there are a variety of opinions here, but opinions don't all hold the same weight. The reality is, I'm going to listen to the Order leaders who defeat me in cities, and not the Order who I roll over while I'm half asleep and barely try. I highly recommend Order starts listening to their top players and guilds and learning from them, instead of telling your own best players on the forums that they are wrong and you know better, because you don't.

(When I say you, I'm talking about Order players who are complaining about city in general, and not specifically you as an individual Velenne, nor am I actually implying that you are whining or anything, I'm just trying to speak in general to the community).

Part of the problem is that being unorganized pug on destro is easier than being unorganized pug on orders. And that is solely balance issue.

Other issue is imo gear gap. When u multiple gear superiority of 20ish characters you really gain advantage. And as some destro players said pre moral nerf (esp at the start when bags had sov items) destro god upper hand hence much more geared characters.

This too comes hand to hand with other issues mentioned at posts before