Return of Reckoning

Uchoo wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:29 pm

Spoiler:

forsa wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:06 pm

Uchoo wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:03 pm All Destro tank survivability looks much better on paper. The reality is that Order has Rampage and Pierce Defenses.

If only SH had Pierce Defenses and BG had Furious Howl built in... oh wait!

Squig Herders can't proc PD reliably. The only good way to do so is Shoot Thru Ya which they don't do and it's not a very viable build for them. There's a Furious Howl on Order too, Staggering Impact.

Regardless, Rampage the most powerful and fight swinging ability in the entire game so yeah, Order wins that one.

While playing in my set group, I don't think i have been afflicted once by Rampage... tbh, nobody, who got a half decent BG or Borc in the group, shouldn't.

forsa wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:02 pm

detrap wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:48 pm

Spoiler:

Strange that you forgot BG (mirror) and BO(x2 silence)

This topic was about knight's usefulness compared to other order tanks.

WE/Ch will focus you 1)because you are 2h to check how soft you are, and 2)if you use Vigil - that's probably cause you are a bit far from 100% Hp duuuuh.

Again, never had a issue. If they are hitting on me when i'm half health they won't kill me in a city and my dps and healers stay alive since their dps on them is practically 0. Again, I'm not entirely sure a WE can choose what enchantment to shatter.

- dafaq did i just read?

Shieldwall < Bellow 100% of the time

This was to argue your point... The guarded target theoretically has double hp or needs to take double the damage to counter guard since they are taking 50% less damage. The idea behind shield wall is that healers in your party do not need to heal you as much and they can they focus heal your guard being targeted.

If you use SW when your guard "glass cannon" is focused... "one party member " ... your healers are dead, same as your guard. if only you were to use something that reduced all the damage from attackers, but at least you were alive for 10 seconds, gj.

From my experience this is very incorrect. How can healers at 100ft away from the blob die? If you haven't tried SW or even the block channel from BG's, I would suggest you to try. Unfortunately the parry buff still breaks after 4 hits of guard damage. Bellow only reduces incoming damage from 30ft area, whereas SW will ensure you block nearly all guard damage from any range. That means one less party member to heal in the group and both healers can pour the heals and morales into the dps guarded. If you are guarding a champ for example, for 10 seconds healers can pump heals into the guarded party member without having to heal you since little damage is being taken from guard. Black Orc mains know this when using Can't Hit Me. Point was to say DB is not the end all of M2's. But that's another topic all together.

Also change your equip, have a coffee and ride into the sunset.
Pls stop. just stop

I always look to change auras mid fight, and tactics when I'm out of combat to optimise my contribution to the warband. As an example if I have a heal debuff aura, I would switch to that when needed.

Except if you are 2h in city and want to live - you have to pick Vigil.
And that part about positioning (no choppas/tanks/mara/magus yeea)in city with ST party(that needs to dive for healers/rdd) is pure gold.
Kindly enlighten me, what equip are you using with your 2h kn when in ST party, roaming city?

Like i said, if heals are not an issue (especially in ST party) why run SF when you can help your dps out more with debuffs? If you are 2h and really have trouble with positioning, you pick vigilance. If you are applying debuffs to the destro train you should always be behind it to ensure you only get hit by guard damage or when pulled in (in which case you run out immediately) and your attacks are applied to a maximum number of targets including the tanks.

1) This topic is about MS, and ways for kn to deal dmg.
2)Please stop this ignorant preaching explaining how abilities and morales work, we all know it (and reading closer, it seems way better than you do).
3)Based on what you write you are theorycrafting for the sake of the argument. If you want to continue derailing and writing about BO's CHM and BG NSP, please do it in another topic. I get it that you have a bg, but topic is about kn.
4)All that you write about city ST party that does not need healing, positioning, swapping tactics and auras amid fight - just shows that you have never been in one (at least on order). Pls stop, you are embarrassing yourself.
5)The more i read, the more i suspect that you lack high lvl geared kn. For example when SmackdownNinja wrote about BG, i instantly loaded mine to test and provide numbers and facts. I suggest you do the same.

You are yet to specify what 2h kn build you are using in teh city, what equip and what rr you spec.
I will gladly try it on my kn as i have almost all high lvl gear available in game.

1) Stack WS instead, MS was a means to an end until you can get better gear
2) Please explain with evidence why I'm possibly incorrect, I've tested these morales over the past few months on multiple tanks.
3) I'm explaining it on the basis of your argument that DB isn't always a must have.
4) Adjusting your set up mid siege (if required) is how to optimally play a tank or any class for that matter. Simple example is switching to dps tactics in stage 2 of city. You are accusing me of not even playing the game?
5) I am only running some beastlord atm, have over 500 weapon skill, doing more damage than I did with a lot less and MS. Looking at a warlord/sov/beastlord to get my weapon skill pushing 700 on top of the +6% armor pen from warlord. If there's a better way to max my WS would love to know. Will be happy to show you the damage I do to targets once I obtain said gear.

Since you most likely have the gear already maybe you can try it (if you haven't). Would be nice damage for a knight, especially with multiple armour debuffs on a target.

I think we have different levels of understanding of tanks and the different ways they can be played in warbands :/

carlos wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:15 pm

Uchoo wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:29 pm

Spoiler:

forsa wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:06 pm

If only SH had Pierce Defenses and BG had Furious Howl built in... oh wait!

Squig Herders can't proc PD reliably. The only good way to do so is Shoot Thru Ya which they don't do and it's not a very viable build for them. There's a Furious Howl on Order too, Staggering Impact.

Regardless, Rampage the most powerful and fight swinging ability in the entire game so yeah, Order wins that one.

While playing in my set group, I don't think i have been afflicted once by Rampage... tbh, nobody, who got a half decent BG or Borc in the group, shouldn't.

While it's true that Rampage can be Shattered by BG/BO/DoK, it's not the most reliable thing to do. FIrst of all, buffs always get shattered in the order they were applied, so you can bury Rampage between some buffs. Second, Shatter can be parried. Removing Rampage is a priority and should be done. The best way to do so is use your Waaaaaaagh or Chop Fasta and get behind the Slayer, which isn't always a safe thing to do. So sometimes it can take 5 globals to remove a Rampage and it's too late at that point.

In RvR, removing Rampage isn't a very viable option in my experience. You have to try to get target on the Slayer in the zerg, through the lag of all of the people, extreme lag-inducing blast pots and Inevitable Dooms. If your tanks are god tier and can remove Rampage from 4 Slayers (an arbitrary number, probably what I would expect to see in an RvR fight) then awesome. In the very likely event that Rampage doesn't get removed, your tanks are paper vs Slayers. There is -NOTHING- in the game that can replicate this level of power. Destro tanks are very poweful on paper but Rampage turns them to paper in large-scale fighting.

Anyway, we're getting off-scope for this thread. Remember, we're talking about Knight damage. We have proven through SS and Video evidence that Knight damage is incredibly low. Now we have to ask ourselves, should Knights have more damage? Do they offer so much more utility than other tanks that they can't be justified to have reasonable damage? Survivability? Good looks? My conclusion will be coming soon, so keep an eye out!

forsa wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:55 pm

SmackdownNinja wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:42 am
You won't get near that much toughness unless you also run rugged (160 toughness tactic). Unless you are running alot of toughness talis, but that cuts into your damage too much. So that means you would have to remove either wounds debuff tactic, 15% crit, or the parry tactic. Which cuts into your utility, ability to guard, or dps by a good margin. And that is in BIS, let alone RR 60. Not to mention you also have to hit a target for the effect to go off, which makes it harder to keep up in some situations, rather then Vigilance which can be toggled without hitting a target.

Glad that we have a BG to speak his concer about MS, oh wait.
Post is about MS, Vigil is a component to let 2h knight survive a bit longer.

But if you want to, lets have a short derail.
My conq (wound) +beast equipped BG has meager 363 Tough without rugged, that transforms into 665 though after TF+ FOW.
If I increase it to godly ~480 toughness by means of equipping better sets/jewl ill instantly achieve 800 tough.
Imagine if i had 620 toughness

Spoiler:

hello 1k

Also dunno what ability to dps you are talking about, but my 370 str bg (~480 after self buff) hits waaay stronger than my full sov kn.
Probably has something to do with x2 armor debuff (i can even drop TF for antidetaunt) but im probably missing something.
Lets try again: 100% uptime + unshatterable and no drawback vs 10sec on 30 sec cd -shatterable -25% damage.

Kn has the worst damage. It is widely considered that KN has some mega op super surviveability compared to other tanks.
In reality BG and BO have much better tools, due to unshatterable nature and uptime.

On Live, all tanks had their thing. Kn had lowest dmg, but m2+RF granted situational burst for +/- 30 sec. No burst here.
MS, had some use for lol dps, now there is no such thing.

My original reply to you was when you brought up the BG, so idk how I was the one derailing. You linked a build stating that you could get 800-1000 toughness which wasn't true because you had no rugged. I tested it on BIS gear (5 off sov, 3 WL) and didn't get close to the numbers you posted. Sure you can get more toughness depending on what sets your using, but your going to hit like a noodle regardless with the str listed above. 370 str unbuffed is no where close to the str needed to do decent assist dps. I see you didn't even post how much ws you had, so I would imagine it is also very low. You need both str and ws as physical attacker to do noticeable dmg. My point is that you can't have those high numbers in toughness without giving up a valuable tactics or giving up a ton of str and ws. Sure you can skew the results using difference sets, and what not. But your str and ws will take a hit to hard, like the numbers you have posted above. The KOTBS makes up for the lack of damage with numerous amounts of the utility and auras the class has, have a good one!

detrap wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:15 pm

1) Stack WS instead, MS was a means to an end until you can get better gear
2) Please explain with evidence why I'm possibly incorrect, I've tested these morales over the past few months on multiple tanks.
3) I'm explaining it on the basis of your argument that DB isn't always a must have.
4) Adjusting your set up mid siege (if required) is how to optimally play a tank or any class for that matter. Simple example is switching to dps tactics in stage 2 of city. You are accusing me of not even playing the game?
5) I am only running some beastlord atm, have over 500 weapon skill, doing more damage than I did with a lot less and MS. Looking at a warlord/sov/beastlord to get my weapon skill pushing 700 on top of the +6% armor pen from warlord. If there's a better way to max my WS would love to know. Will be happy to show you the damage I do to targets once I obtain said gear.

Again, what you are saying is conclusively incorrect. You talk about swapping tactics and morales mid-fight. You drop combat, wait 10 seconds, then change tactics? No, you don't, no one does.

You do more damage with WS and no MS? No, you don't. Even with WS, you aren't reaching near the levels of unmitigated damage as you were with MS. If you are doing more damage, you've had some serious gear upgrade along the lines of Str, Weapon DPS, maybe you learned how to use Taunt. Stacking a ton of WS on a Knight doesn't even make sense in the current state of Knight damage. Your optimal damage seems to be between Blazing Blade, which is Ele on the DoT and WS has no impact; and PS, let's take a look at WS scaling for PS, shall we?

https://gyazo.com/32b96306653bb4c95ab397865c17f901

Using Shield Wall is criminally incorrect. If you are ever in a situation where Shield Wall is offering your -TEAM- better survivability than Bellow, your team is taking so much damage that there is no expectation you should ever live, or perhaps you aren't invested enough in Guard avoidance in the first place. Try using Shield Rush.

While I appreciate some of your creative ideas and your passion for the game, you have very little credibility. You post all these opinion pieces with no evidence and the experience of every Veteran player is almost completely opposite of what you say.

Uchoo wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:47 pm

detrap wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:15 pm

1) Stack WS instead, MS was a means to an end until you can get better gear
2) Please explain with evidence why I'm possibly incorrect, I've tested these morales over the past few months on multiple tanks.
3) I'm explaining it on the basis of your argument that DB isn't always a must have.
4) Adjusting your set up mid siege (if required) is how to optimally play a tank or any class for that matter. Simple example is switching to dps tactics in stage 2 of city. You are accusing me of not even playing the game?
5) I am only running some beastlord atm, have over 500 weapon skill, doing more damage than I did with a lot less and MS. Looking at a warlord/sov/beastlord to get my weapon skill pushing 700 on top of the +6% armor pen from warlord. If there's a better way to max my WS would love to know. Will be happy to show you the damage I do to targets once I obtain said gear.

Again, what you are saying is conclusively incorrect. You talk about swapping tactics and morales mid-fight. You drop combat, wait 10 seconds, then change tactics? No, you don't, no one does.

You do more damage with WS and no MS? No, you don't. Even with WS, you aren't reaching near the levels of unmitigated damage as you were with MS. If you are doing more damage, you've had some serious gear upgrade along the lines of Str, Weapon DPS, maybe you learned how to use Taunt. Stacking a ton of WS on a Knight doesn't even make sense in the current state of Knight damage. Your optimal damage seems to be between Blazing Blade, which is Ele on the DoT and WS has no impact; and PS, let's take a look at WS scaling for PS, shall we?

https://gyazo.com/32b96306653bb4c95ab397865c17f901

Using Shield Wall is criminally incorrect. If you are ever in a situation where Shield Wall is offering your -TEAM- better survivability than Bellow, your team is taking so much damage that there is no expectation you should ever live, or perhaps you aren't invested enough in Guard avoidance in the first place. Try using Shield Rush.

While I appreciate some of your creative ideas and your passion for the game, you have very little credibility. You post all these opinion pieces with no evidence and the experience of every Veteran player is almost completely opposite of what you say.

Please read my previous posts in regards to swapping abilities during a siege. If you don't swap to dps tactics when killing champs in stage 2, you are not helping your warband. You are not considered to be 'in combat' when attacking champs, so you can easily flip tactics back if the enemy shows up. If I have a heal debuff aura and see the healers are blobbed together, I would switch to it. You can change tactics when you are dead/respawned or at the start/end of each stage, can't you?

Having 600-700 Weaponskill, with the equivalent or more in strength, +6% armor pen with warlord, and considering PS ignores 25% armor, combine with armour debuffs...You will do significantly more damage. Ask any good dps IB, they just do it better.

The imaged you reference only shows a player with 250 weaponskill. A knight can get upwards of 40-50% armor penetration from weaponskill alone.

In regards to shield wall. Don't bash it till you try it (if you haven't). Like I said bellow is only 30ft and SW guarantees all guard damage from ∞ range is blocked. Some warbands have ranged classes, so SW is especially helpful in that scenario because they are not usually blobbed up for a good bellow. This is why Can't Hit Me, WODS, Oathstone and None Shall Pass are strong in regards to this. A good example is when trying to guard a light armour champ in stage 3 city as a non champ, DB alone won't be enough to keep you alive, you want to maintain that guard buff for as long as they are being focused.

I could get almost 60% block with shield rush, however there is no comparison and healers are left trying to heal me while desperately spreading the heals on my guard. Shield rush needs to land and any defensive procs need to trigger at the same time. SW is as easy as using it, body blocking their push, taking almost no damage and all the heals can be poured into your guard as well as other members of the warband. Use shield wall during a blob push and look at your combat log, and ask your own healers was it easier to focus heal the guarded mdps compared to using bellow?

Again please don't make assumptions of my level of experience as being a warranted reason to dismiss my case. I'm just explaining what is read on the tooltips, I've tried and tested these abilities on multiple tanks. IB's don't need shield wall if they have Oathstone, and 2h SM's can use WOD's to hit 100% on all their defence stats (minus block) to have the same effect. However those are not passive abilities unlike SW.

The ways of playing a tank is not built as a one or two way street and I presume some players feel the class can be boring because they believe it is. This is what makes this game great!

forsa wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:55 pm
My conq (wound) +beast equipped BG has meager 363 Tough without rugged, that transforms into 665 though after TF+ FOW.
If I increase it to godly ~480 toughness by means of equipping better sets/jewl ill instantly achieve 800 tough.
Imagine if i had 620 toughness

Spoiler:

hello 1k

Don't care about the rest of the thread but no BG with that can press two buttons together even looks at terrifying foe, it's a garbage tactic that even SNB bgs often will chose to avoid, and nobody plays snb.
Hell the only use I can see in TF is if you have 6piece sov and want to ram it into some random solo roaming build.
But I guess that's what most "balance" threads are about, random solo roamers lol

i love how one of the worst tactics in the game was removed and it sparks more whining than anything ive seen since coming back

Uchoo wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:36 pm

carlos wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:15 pm

Uchoo wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:29 pm

Spoiler:

Squig Herders can't proc PD reliably. The only good way to do so is Shoot Thru Ya which they don't do and it's not a very viable build for them. There's a Furious Howl on Order too, Staggering Impact.

Regardless, Rampage the most powerful and fight swinging ability in the entire game so yeah, Order wins that one.

While playing in my set group, I don't think i have been afflicted once by Rampage... tbh, nobody, who got a half decent BG or Borc in the group, shouldn't.

While it's true that Rampage can be Shattered by BG/BO/DoK, it's not the most reliable thing to do. FIrst of all, buffs always get shattered in the order they were applied, so you can bury Rampage between some buffs. Second, Shatter can be parried. Removing Rampage is a priority and should be done. The best way to do so is use your Waaaaaaagh or Chop Fasta and get behind the Slayer, which isn't always a safe thing to do. So sometimes it can take 5 globals to remove a Rampage and it's too late at that point.

In RvR, removing Rampage isn't a very viable option in my experience. You have to try to get target on the Slayer in the zerg, through the lag of all of the people, extreme lag-inducing blast pots and Inevitable Dooms. If your tanks are god tier and can remove Rampage from 4 Slayers (an arbitrary number, probably what I would expect to see in an RvR fight) then awesome. In the very likely event that Rampage doesn't get removed, your tanks are paper vs Slayers. There is -NOTHING- in the game that can replicate this level of power. Destro tanks are very poweful on paper but Rampage turns them to paper in large-scale fighting.

Anyway, we're getting off-scope for this thread. Remember, we're talking about Knight damage. We have proven through SS and Video evidence that Knight damage is incredibly low. Now we have to ask ourselves, should Knights have more damage? Do they offer so much more utility than other tanks that they can't be justified to have reasonable damage? Survivability? Good looks? My conclusion will be coming soon, so keep an eye out!

While this is de-railing i feel obligated to answer.

There is quite a long list of how to prevent getting affected by Rampage, to shatter it is only one.
Stagger it (if the aggro fatty have immunity, someone in the group/wb have done something wrong from the start), punt (same this with the immunity), KD (same), root (same), disarm (same), snare, simply stay away once the aggro fatty pops Rampage etc. etc. It basicly boils down to a l2p issue (that's best beaten by competence and practice, not a cry out on the forum... which im sure we're not gonna get saved from).

Upon all this, Rampage also have to be popped in the right moment for it to be useful in the slighest.

TreefAM wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:47 am

forsa wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:55 pm
My conq (wound) +beast equipped BG has meager 363 Tough without rugged, that transforms into 665 though after TF+ FOW.
If I increase it to godly ~480 toughness by means of equipping better sets/jewl ill instantly achieve 800 tough.
Imagine if i had 620 toughness

Spoiler:

hello 1k

Don't care about the rest of the thread but no BG with that can press two buttons together even looks at terrifying foe, it's a garbage tactic that even SNB bgs often will chose to avoid, and nobody plays snb.
Hell the only use I can see in TF is if you have 6piece sov and want to ram it into some random solo roaming build.
But I guess that's what most "balance" threads are about, random solo roamers lol

The logic of this man is a vivid example of why destruction loses forts. The only thing I do not understand is why there is no renown trainer in the fort and each of them does not require 10 gold for respec. This was firstly used to restrain inflation and secondly once and for all taught to go to the fort in their main spec.

ps. dream of having such m4 for my ib.
ps2 sorry for offtopic