Return of Reckoning

Agree concerning the video ^ not the beeeest example, but I'm sure there are others that could be brought to the table showcasing a more accurate portrayal of the 'situation' (if wanted, of course).

Today i joined multiple scs where ppl was so pissed about facing melee SW premade that booth groups just stayed at the spawn and didnt bother fight a bit against this order only "no big deal" utility.

wargrimnir wrote:The off chance someone decides to bugger around with <a conq-geared ASW> for more than the 20 minutes of novelty it provides, at least you'll be well defended.

Swap the part in between pinkish bits with 'a group build around procs', 'a group full of shamans timing their stuff', 'others' or virtually any other setup, or w/e.

If you gauge the potency of a thing by the number of people picking up on it (the 'meta' or w/e term you fancy)... then welp, we are 9 years into WAR's existence and people have yet to pick on grouping/building compositions/communication on a greater - more importantly even: basic - scale.

If every SW derping about had a spot in a fix group - and wasn't falling victim to the evil disease pugus scrubus -, you'd see a trend in terms of specs, I am certain.

No group (reliable heal, guard, assist, ...) = no mdps shenanigans, that applies to ASWs, too. Hence not much overall uproar about it.

On a cynical note, in regards to solo/pugplay... why would the average joe run a spec that boosts everyones deeps, if average joe is playing for dem shinies and requires a somewhat reliable support situation to apply his rotation? It is akin to giving competitors in the dps race a headstart on you; in the first GCD upon WS application the target might have died twice already, before you get to pad your contribution to a kill - alternatively, in large scale, you might just die before you impact on your target.
People don't pick rdps to pug on, to then mimic their play sessions with an unguarded, un-healed and un-assisted mdps ~ hence you see few ASWs, ever fewer ASWs that consider it a good spec. You won't regard something highly that you haven't had the pleasure to test in an appropriate setup.

wargrimnir wrote:I'm not sure how dismissive I'm coming off, but that's certainly not the case, and I'm not the only one on the team that looks at this stuff.

I've seen one video of two premades squaring off, and one of the tanks getting burst down on the initial encounter. After that, the destro group lost, but it was because they didn't have the dps output to take someone down. Watch the rest of the fight instead of dropping your jaw at the omg-he-exploded moment. They also didn't bother with much CC if that ASW was such a threat. Maybe they didn't realize and would play it differently next time.

Not a one-dimensional I-WIN button in that case. Certainly makes the ASW something to be respected instead of ignored.

Well, as mentioned before, i think the showing of how out of line it is comes later, when both tanks of the destru group burn morales, debuff the rp and before they can even start bursting down, the choppa explodes, not only he explodes, he eats so much damage he almost kills his tank due to the guard split

This shows what to me is the troublesome part of the skill and how it ignores the balance, the destruction group tries to start a burn phase, pops cds, punts a tank and as a result, one of their dps dies.

Maybe i am wrong but i dont think the order group is burning anything, they just got the conq proc, thats all, they just have to wait for that and call for the focus, destruction is asked what every other group is asked to do, punt the tank, pop morales and kill the target within a certain timeframe, the other group relies entirely on a proc, once its up, the target will die, in guard range.

This is not equal with anything currently in the game, bursting targets through guard in equal number situations is almost always impossible, if it happens is a clear missplay but here it just happens before they can even react to it.

If we are going to balance around that, alright, then every mdps should have the same rule, once they get to you, unless someone punts them out, target is dead, thorugh guard and everything, if you tell me, yeah this is the first step and every other class is going to have access to the same toolset, alright, its fine.

But currently, they can ignore things every other group is unable to, things that are good for the game like having to punt the tanks in order to burn the guarded target, so thats why i say its completely broken.

bloodi wrote:

wargrimnir wrote:I'm not sure how dismissive I'm coming off, but that's certainly not the case, and I'm not the only one on the team that looks at this stuff.

I've seen one video of two premades squaring off, and one of the tanks getting burst down on the initial encounter. After that, the destro group lost, but it was because they didn't have the dps output to take someone down. Watch the rest of the fight instead of dropping your jaw at the omg-he-exploded moment. They also didn't bother with much CC if that ASW was such a threat. Maybe they didn't realize and would play it differently next time.

Not a one-dimensional I-WIN button in that case. Certainly makes the ASW something to be respected instead of ignored.

Well, as mentioned before, i think the showing of how out of line it is comes later, when both tanks of the destru group burn morales, debuff the rp and before they can even start bursting down, the choppa explodes, not only he explodes, he eats so much damage he almost kills his tank due to the guard split

This shows what to me is the troublesome part of the skill and how it ignores the balance, the destruction group tries to start a burn phase, pops cds, punts a tank and as a result, one of their dps dies.

Maybe i am wrong but i dont think the order group is burning anything, they just got the conq proc, thats all, they just have to wait for that and call for the focus, destruction is asked what every other group is asked to do, punt the tank, pop morales and kill the target within a certain timeframe, the other group relies entirely on a proc, once its up, the target will die, in guard range.

This is not equal with anything currently in the game, bursting targets through guard in equal number situations is almost always impossible, if it happens is a clear missplay but here it just happens before they can even react to it.

If we are going to balance around that, alright, then every mdps should have the same rule, once they get to you, unless someone punts them out, target is dead, thorugh guard and everything, if you tell me, yeah this is the first step and every other class is going to have access to the same toolset, alright, its fine.

But currently, they can ignore things every other group is unable to, things that are good for the game like having to punt the tanks in order to burn the guarded target, so thats why i say its completely broken.

Choppa might not be the best example for wot could be exploded considering their entire rage mechanic causes them to explode.

WL isn't exactly light on the burst all by itself, let alone when in a highly coordinated group. That WP was using a 2h, so it might have been tickling a little, dunno who that Clown guy is. Would have to assume he barely knows what he's doing probably forgot to switch to his book. 1-3-2 comp has high burst damage? Tell me it ain't so!

wargrimnir wrote: Choppa might not be the best example for wot could be exploded considering their entire rage mechanic causes them to explode.

WL isn't exactly light on the burst all by itself, let alone when in a highly coordinated group. That WP was using a 2h, so it might have been tickling a little, dunno who that Clown guy is. Would have to assume he barely knows what he's doing probably forgot to switch to his book. 1-3-2 comp has high burst damage? Tell me it ain't so!

peterthepan3 wrote:feel free to check one of dalgri saved vods. had ripgor kyranria and 2 experienced high rr tanks. 6v6d even them with relative ease (relative ease and ripgor in same sentence shows something up) using kajtarn melee sw. we were also using melee heal wp; that's how sure we were of pressure being overwhelming.

Emphasis are mine.

wargrimnir wrote:Choppa might not be the best example for wot could be exploded considering their entire rage mechanic causes them to explode.

WL isn't exactly light on the burst all by itself, let alone when in a highly coordinated group. That WP was using a 2h, so it might have been tickling a little, dunno who that Clown guy is. Would have to assume he barely knows what he's doing probably forgot to switch to his book. 1-3-2 comp has high burst damage? Tell me it ain't so!

Change choppa for any other class, it would explode.

Change the SW for any other class on order, it wouldnt explode at all, most 1-3-2 cannot even come close to burn people through guards.

We can test it anytime you want, we can bet on it even, the instance happening on the video only happens because the SW and the ini debuff stacking paired with blurring shocks.

You seem to think that this is something that happens often when its seriously rare and out of line.

bloodi wrote:

wargrimnir wrote:Choppa might not be the best example for wot could be exploded considering their entire rage mechanic causes them to explode.

WL isn't exactly light on the burst all by itself, let alone when in a highly coordinated group. That WP was using a 2h, so it might have been tickling a little, dunno who that Clown guy is. Would have to assume he barely knows what he's doing probably forgot to switch to his book. 1-3-2 comp has high burst damage? Tell me it ain't so!

Change choppa for any other class, it would explode.

Change the SW for any other class on order, it wouldnt explode at all, most 1-3-2 cannot even come close to burn people through guards.

We can test it anytime you want, we can bet on it even, the instance happening on the video only happens because the SW and the ini debuff stacking paired with blurring shocks.

You seem to think that this is something that happens often when its seriously rare and out of line.

Should make for some interesting videos at least? I've seen one so far. Scens are a lot harder to spy on compared to RvR, so feel free to enlighten beyond the beaten to death horse that is theorycrafting in this thread. Not ignorning concerns, or dismissing them outright, but rather taking in information via evidence, which has come up a bit short.

wargrimnir wrote:Should make for some interesting videos at least? I've seen one so far. Scens are a lot harder to spy on compared to RvR, so feel free to enlighten beyond the beaten to death horse that is theorycrafting in this thread. Not ignorning concerns, or dismissing them outright, but rather taking in information via evidence, which has come up a bit short.

Well, its commendable that you rather want to see video evidence that math but when math has already proven its out of line and video proof only seems to corroborate it, asking for people to prove it even more comes off as you just simply not wanting to check out the math to be honest.

I mean, its rather the side that claims is not broken that is proposing paper counters and claiming its because the class, the gear and so on, at this point, i would be inclined to say that the evidence that has to be put down is the one that proves is not broken, of which, we seen none yet.

We have numbers, we have videos, i even think i explained why its not in line with how every other thing in the game behaves and there is video showing it.

The burden of proof may not lie on us anymore.

Don't forget to get a SM with you. Blurring shock is doing all the job believe me. This initiative wonderwuffle doesn't work without certain comp. But that's not my business I guess. Who would listen to me if I told them that w/o SM we weren't able to kill nor Dalgri's, nor Sixpounder's groups with SW/BW comp... Just passing by (check the dmg graph after sc end in any video with SW but tssss)