Return of Reckoning

wargrimnir wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:14 pm Old school MMO's like WAR are not designed to be won, in particular with PvP games they often rely on excitement and challenge rather than "FUN".

I don’t exactly disagree, but the game has already turned into soft version of wintrading, where one side is pve content with the best artificial intelligence in the entire industry. And this, oddly enough, does not suit anyone, neither the order, which here, as you can see in the minority, and the destruction that already creates a topic in a row. You can endlessly blame one side for poor self-organization, but people do not come in organized groups from nowhere, but they are created from the existing player base, through a long rally and coordination around veterans and hardcore players. For some completely incomprehensible and mystical reasons, one of the side lost all interest in such actions. Maybe the people themselves are to blame, or maybe the game design, who knows ..

To be honest a lot can be explained by leaders of the pugs and inclusive guilds.

From my experience Destro success in the past has been driven by players that take the lead , have personalities that folk follow and the rest is free cheese.

Just look as the effect Ocara, lutz (ok I hate pughing so limit time ther) , greenskin wb etc have driven Destro. Order have in the past had these leaders and guilds but there is a bit more bitch/need to win mentality that broke some leaders wish to lead. Be nice and nice things happen

Either way root solution is group / take responsibility / inform about enemy/ be active and also remember you can also run a warband. If you run a warband hold discipline and kick any not following, have fun and get a following. Then you win

wargrimnir wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:14 pm

Spoiler:

Duukar wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:04 pm
You fell right into it man.

I’m a 40 year old airline pilot with a wife. Yes it took me quite a while to get my WH where she is. Is that hard to understand?

Now I have to listen to the devs and multi RR80s,like you, tell a large portion of the player base including myself that we made a big mistake trying to enjoy the game and that has now spun so seriously out of control that we have skewed City results this badly?

Please help me? Have I misinterpreted the jist of this thread?

Just FYI I’m in one of the good order guilds. Last 3 cities I played my WH. We won all 3 even with me acting as an anchor.

Ever played a game and felt like a liability?

Ever play a game and be told you are part of the problem for why there is such a huge imbalance in the outcome?

Ever been forced to reroll after many many hours of your precious time invested?

I’m pissed and you just throw gas on the fire.

Congratulations on your airplane and permanent lady friend.

A large portion of the playerbase that hasn't been playing on the server for literal years don't have multiple classes geared and leveled because a large portion of them joined in the past 4 months due to some serendipitous YouTube exposure. You guys are indeed in the catchup position, and that's how MMO's work. Yes the veterans and staff are talking down to you a little bit, because none of us are particularly interested in giving away the content the game has to offer.

Gaming is indeed precious time, and we hope that you enjoy the majority of that in the grand scheme of things, even when they're challenging or difficult in the day to day, or battle to battle. Old school MMO's like WAR are not designed to be won, in particular with PvP games they often rely on excitement and challenge rather than "FUN". How you derive enjoyment from your free time would need to reflect the game we're developing, not the other way around. That's not to say that thoughtful feedback is entirely ignored, but some premises would simply change the dynamic of the game, and we're exceedingly unlikely to explore them.

Sorry, don't understand. Challenge in what? Pick a class in a create section? If this so... May be, just may be, whole this balance problem will be solved by one simple action - cut off all "wrong" classes? And all will be on the "right" classes. Or this will remove desired challenge from the game?

And no, old school MMO's it's not about WAR, it's about ultima, everquest, lineage...

Duukar wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:56 pm
I propose double XP and renown for Order Tanks, Runepriests, Warrior Priests, Slayers and WLs for two weeks. As part of that additional renown bonuses for damage mitigated by guard. Gotta incentivize guarding apparently.

Your turn.

PS thanks for taking time to address my issues. If I’m saying it guaranteed there are 100s of other thinking it.

My turn

This is WAR and you wont find universal income, welfare or food stamps here. You might find my foot in your ass though.

We need to man it up on the Order side, coordinate and win. I certainly do NOT want any help from anyone and I dont give a F if I have to reroll to do it. Fortunately, I can say this because I already have 8 viable meta alts to play.

We have the tools to dominate, we have done it before and will do it again.

velenne wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:42 pm

Foofmonger wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:58 pm

velenne wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:48 pm

See the 2nd post of this thread.

Yea sorry I wasn't clear. Not that the win rate isn't biased (we all know that it is) but that "class balance" is biased.

Just to recap if we look at the people in this thread and their opinions:

These are the groups of people who view the "city win rate bias" as being an "organizational issue":

1. Most of Destro (obviously)
2. The top guild leaders from multiple top order guilds (Montauge, LBL, TUP).
3. The developers.

There are these groups of people who view the "city win rate bias" as being a "class balance issues":

1. The unorganized order who doesn't win cities.

I think that's an unfair mischaracterization. I'd put the onus of change at about 50/50% between the order players who manifestly have a hard time organizing themselves and the developers who have the ability to concede to the playerbase's desire to play certain classes over others. I mean, devs can try to keep shoehorning order into playing naked beard babies and cross-dressers by actively going out of their way to punish them for not doing so. That's a strategy too. I guess? Based on what I'm seeing here and what's been shared with me privately, it seems the developers feel it's 99.9% the players' fault and order just needs to fix its own problems. I think we all know the likelihood of that happening is precisely 0%. But I'll try, Lord knows, I'll try, to muster up the forces of Order into being more organized. I'll let you know how it goes.

I just totally agree that buffing orders underperforming classes IS a good idea. But also you have to fix the organization as well. These two things in concert should fix the issue. This will allow "more" order players to participate in "better" wbs.

I'm not trying to mischaracterize anything really. If order brings the correct comps, they can win city, the same way destro has to create correct comps. It's just that order has a slightly more limited variety in classes they can choose, combined with the weird class distribution we already talked about. I thought we've covered this in detail already.

That's why I'm saying we're basically done here no? We've covered that there were the 4 things that should happen like way up in the thread, and 2 of them were about what the devs can do to adjust things. I think the point Wargrimnir is making is not "we won't buff underperforming classes", it's "we are already planning on and actively work on doing so, so forum threads like this don't really impact that".

I feel like we have overall good consensus and understanding at this point no?

Kwatchi wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:15 pm

Foofmonger wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:58 pm 2. The top guild leaders from multiple top order guilds (Montauge, LBL, TUP).

ROFL

Montague - xrealmers/sc crew, but I'll give it to you.

TUP - Played Order the first week City was out and has not been back since. Can we stop this charade finally?

LBL - You obviously didn't talk with Rolgrom, because he is not happy one bit.


I'll be generous. You managed to identify two top Order city guild out of three, and the one you did get has the opposite opinion to what you say. /golfclap

TUP order first 2 months just so you know .D Febrary 8 to April 1

Kwatchi wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:15 pm

TUP - Played Order the first week City was out and has not been back since. Can we stop this charade finally?

We were doing order cities from mid feb from launch to end of march, by which point the most hardcore of our city loggers had reached full sov, myself only able to reach 2pc on SL and 2pc on WL in that time. Of about the 35sh cities we fought, we only lost once and that was vs alliance of Destro 6man players against which we were trying to experiment by instaqueueing with 3 WHs and only 1 RP in the wb and missing some of our core members. (in hindsight, never allow more than 1 WH to the warband...)

That being said, might go gear Order alts again in future once 2nd and 3rd Destro "mains" are enough Sov geared...

Anyway, yeah, balance is kinda BORKed when it comes to internal Order realm balance. You have meta of SL/WL/BW + Kotb/SM + WP/RP, plus the occasional room for 1 excellent AM and maybe 1 experienced ASW/WH who will be ninjatraining on the enemy heals with ST burst and maybe 1 IB in case no SM/Kotb found. We have internal guild rule on simply not allowing any Engis into city. So yeah, the non-meta classes Engi/WH/SW/IB/AM are somewhat "meh" atm, but Destro has also its undesired or "max 1 only" classes.
But when its Order meta meleetrain + BW bombs, vs Destro meta of meleebomb + token RDPS champ, it's quite even now. Not that was it uneven in the past between the best warbands of each side, both sides would avoid morale bombs, keep spreading and keep trying to nuke down priority targets - against which you only survived with some dedicated out of party healing and guard swaps. Now it's "less deadly" without the threat of morales, and it becomes even harder to get any competent enemy with 8 good healers down to the point where they start wiping - regardless of which side you are on.

Order could easily start getting more city victories if players stopped bringing their meh-classes to city and focused on gearing classes that suit current meta.
Mara dmg/crit+tankiness+utility potential combo is bit high and SW is still a mystery pick, but apart from Destro access to AoE meatballs, (in turn order BWs simply having few million more dmg potential than Sorcs and their heal modifier stack going through the roof with potential of 100+110% inc heal modifier...), rest of the classes are more or less "balanced" between their alleged/supposed mirrors.

Duukar wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:56 pm
I’m a veteran of PvP MMOs like DAoC. I know how to invest time wisely to get top tier gear and then PvP my balls off. I’m usually in top tier guilds and experience lots of winning. I’m addicted to the underdog hence I’m stuck on Order(I have a 40/50 BO in a top alliance). I played Albion mainly in DAoC. Glutton for punishment.

In all my 20 years of serious online gaming I’ve not seen such an imbalanced outcome.

I’ve never seen the devs and veteran players turn on newer players and casuals so fiercely. You NEED targets to kill don’t you?

I just read 17 pages that all say one thing. Most of Order has rolled the wrong class due to stupidity or vanity. Please correct me if I’m wrong here. I’m struggling with this....

Ok so how do we fix this? I love WAR and I want to keep playing. You are telling all of us we need to reroll to six specific classes that a lot of players don’t want to play on Order. For sure it’s true, but this problem won’t fix itself.

I propose double XP and renown for Order Tanks, Runepriests, Warrior Priests, Slayers and WLs for two weeks. As part of that additional renown bonuses for damage mitigated by guard. Gotta incentivize guarding apparently.

Your turn.

PS thanks for taking time to address my issues. If I’m saying it guaranteed there are 100s of other thinking it.

One of my pet peeves in dealing with people on the forums is wild hyperbole and ridiculous exaggeration. That's usually when I start to tune them out and move along to my happy place.

Your double XP suggestion is hilarious. I breathed slightly harder out of my nostrils whilst reading it. Good luck leveling.

Valarion wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:17 pm

Duukar wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:56 pm
I propose double XP and renown for Order Tanks, Runepriests, Warrior Priests, Slayers and WLs for two weeks. As part of that additional renown bonuses for damage mitigated by guard. Gotta incentivize guarding apparently.

Your turn.

PS thanks for taking time to address my issues. If I’m saying it guaranteed there are 100s of other thinking it.

My turn

This isnt a Democrat caucus and you arent going to get free **** for doing literally nothing. This is WAR and you wont find universal income, welfare or food stamps here. You might find my foot in your ass though.

We need to man it up on the Order side, coordinate and win. I certainly do NOT want any help from anyone and I dont give a F if I have to reroll to do it. Fortunately, I can say this because I already have 8 viable meta alts to play.

We have the tools to dominate, we have done it before and will do it again.

Then get on your lowby and help the whole pile of us who are having to reroll win SCs. I don’t see many wins for order in EU prime time and I have limited time during NA late night. You know, having a job and a wife.

Maybe the devs and the vets can get together and make order dominant in SCs for a while. Hahahah

Free stuff? I already did the work to be viable and play this game to a high level. IT WASNT GOOD ENOUGH! Also I’m Canadian. Trust me it’s best here bro.

In addition, is this not unprecedented? Telling like 50% of one side of a WAR they need to reroll and regrind gear and RR?

You guys have the answer, now do something about it! Congrats on your 8 geared and RRed toons btw.

Finally on a personal note. Watch how you speak to me. In terms of putting feet in asses I’m going to guarantee you 100% that were we ever to meet IRL you would eat those words. Now I KNOW you are an American and you likely have 100 guns and obviously an IQ to match that number.

No greater disservice has been done to the world then people being able to talk big behind a wall of anonymity free from the fear of a giant trained elbow in the nose.

I feel like everybody is looking over the l2p issues. I can agree that it's not the dominant cause of order losing but i've had a city a couple of days ago in a semi pug against a "top" order city guild ( with alliance filler i believe ) with 2 witch elves that, comp wise, we had no business winning, but still won, just because they had a lot of weak links.
I do believe a significant cause is also the marauder monstro proc denying huge amounts of incoming damage, but nobody seems to be talking about it.