Return of Reckoning

Melekith wrote: ↑Sat Jul 13, 2024 8:43 am

georgehabadasher wrote: ↑Sat Jul 13, 2024 7:55 am I think you might want to consider the possibility that how you and your alliance play doesn't represent the average player.

That is the problem. Claims are simply made here that are not verified. It would be relatively easy to start a survey and collect the results. Then you could get an idea of whether the claims that are simply being made here are true. I've just given an example of how it is in my community, because I know it and have been playing with these people for a few years now. All you're doing is simply making assertions that you can't back up.

That includes you.

you don't need to be a mathmatical genius to figure that the casual average joe player is far more of a majority than the top 10% elitist premaders.

If you think they're the majority then there's no hope really.

Dackjanielz wrote: ↑Sat Jul 13, 2024 10:31 am

Melekith wrote: ↑Sat Jul 13, 2024 8:43 am

georgehabadasher wrote: ↑Sat Jul 13, 2024 7:55 am I think you might want to consider the possibility that how you and your alliance play doesn't represent the average player.

That is the problem. Claims are simply made here that are not verified. It would be relatively easy to start a survey and collect the results. Then you could get an idea of whether the claims that are simply being made here are true. I've just given an example of how it is in my community, because I know it and have been playing with these people for a few years now. All you're doing is simply making assertions that you can't back up.

That includes you.

you don't need to be a mathmatical genius to figure that the casual average joe player is far more of a majority than the top 10% elitist premaders.

If you think they're the majority then there's no hope really.

A less emotional language would be appropriate in a discourse.

Just because players come together to form a premade does not make them elitists. This is another typical post that suggests a biased point of view.

Back to the topic. Even if the majority plays alone, it doesn't mean that's the right way to play. An indication of this is the game Wrath of Heroes, which was released by the developers of Warhammer Online. It was, if you like, a stripped-down version of Warhammer Online, more of a MOBA. Some of the maps were also introduced in RoR (Pyramid of Settra). If I remember correctly, there was no guard. Heal was also only possible on a small scale. The game was designed for quick fun. You could build groups, but it wasn't necessary because it was designed for solo play. There were good reasons why the developers designed Wrath of Heroes this way and not otherwise. What I'm trying to say is that I think there are good reasons why Warhammer Online was designed this way. Building groups is part of the game. Groups become warbands. Warbands become the zerg. I think it's wrong to throw all that out the window. What about tools to improve socializing? The friendlist in the game is the best example of this, unfortunately it is character-bound.

Making the friends list bound to account rather than toon might be a good idea to help with group formation. The highest ranked toon on the account shows as the name and it shows what character is active on mouse over.

I quite like that idea as well but don’t think it’s a fix.

Above you seem to be discussing pre-mades and PRE-MADES and these are not the same thing. You cannot balance for 6 good players playing together for the first time with coms with a proper pre-made, who although they have coms use them to banter about the weekend, because they already know who is moving where and what’s happening next having played together so often. You can’t balance a 2-2-2 pug with no communication with a 2-2-2 group in voice, that cannot be the goal of balance, those players using voice are doing something outside the scope of the game to control to improve their experience. Next you will have to all put limiters on routers and play with VPN’s in NZ or Australia so we all have long ping times.

On a less silly note…
I would like a trainer in all SCs, sometimes you need heals or dps or AoE or s+b and it would be nice to sort that on arrival especially for a pug group. I don’t want to force people to play a way but it would be great if they could choose.

Allonairre wrote: ↑Sun Jul 14, 2024 12:12 pm Making the friends list bound to account rather than toon might be a good idea to help with group formation. The highest ranked toon on the account shows as the name and it shows what character is active on mouse over.

I quite like that idea as well but don’t think it’s a fix.

Above you seem to be discussing pre-mades and PRE-MADES and these are not the same thing. You cannot balance for 6 good players playing together for the first time with coms with a proper pre-made, who although they have coms use them to banter about the weekend, because they already know who is moving where and what’s happening next having played together so often. You can’t balance a 2-2-2 pug with no communication with a 2-2-2 group in voice, that cannot be the goal of balance, those players using voice are doing something outside the scope of the game to control to improve their experience. Next you will have to all put limiters on routers and play with VPN’s in NZ or Australia so we all have long ping times.

On a less silly note…
I would like a trainer in all SCs, sometimes you need heals or dps or AoE or s+b and it would be nice to sort that on arrival especially for a pug group. I don’t want to force people to play a way but it would be great if they could choose.

The idea of a trainer could be helpful. Thought about that too. But I think it is only one aspect which could help to solve the problem.

Regarding your assumptions: I was probably too specific with what I wrote here. I was more referring to the overall game design mechanics. I think everything should be analyzed before you put energy into a new matchmaking system.

The "Wrath of Heroes" example was also related to the game design and how the mechanics work for the individual player and the queue system.

Here is a link to an article that looks at the whole thing holistically and perhaps makes it clear what I'm getting at.
https://www.gamedeveloper.com/design/de ... lose-modal

@Melekith

Melekith wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 5:13 pm
The idea of a trainer could be helpful. Thought about that too. But I think it is only one aspect which could help to solve the problem.

Regarding your assumptions: I was probably too specific with what I wrote here. I was more referring to the overall game design mechanics. I think everything should be analyzed before you put energy into a new matchmaking system.

The "Wrath of Heroes" example was also related to the game design and how the mechanics work for the individual player and the queue system.

Here is a link to an article that looks at the whole thing holistically and perhaps makes it clear what I'm getting at.
https://www.gamedeveloper.com/design/de ... lose-modal

Thanks that was an interesting read. I think you misinterpreted me though, fundamentally I was agreeing with you. The Match-Maker cannot account for all things. It just doesn’t have that much control.

If I were to design a queue thing for RoR you would probably check some boxes of what you were prepared to do (within the scope of your class) then it would put you in a cross realm queue which would pop when it had 12-24 in q and split the classes. So even amounts of tanks, dps and healers on each side. Then you can figure it out in /sc chat who is doing what and respec accordingly. (Trainer in SC)

Initially this would be purely for discordant I think. Maybe offer a discordant event queue if it’s working.

Ideally you would not have the cross realm queue but I think it’s needed with already very long waits between discordant pops.

That does not stop players creating discord channels to use voice in because you cannot. It does not punish players for playing a certain way but tries to factors it in. My worry would be this in no way prevents some of the toxic behaviour that you see in ranked at times but I hope that would not seep into discordant SCs. The design is for a queue system though not a complete game rework. Maybe have vendors and trainers in SC so you can stock up on pots if no/low heals etc.

Hopefully this would fix the discordant experience for pugs, that would leave other SCs for pre-made groups which would still not be equal but hopefully all double pre-made so the result is not determined (entirely) by the off group being no tanks or no healers or no dps.

In a perfect world you meet people in your SCs in T1-3 get to know them and group up with them and become a regular pre-made in T4 (yes it would be rough initially, but you learn more from losses than wins if you have good people around you)… baby steps though

I don’t care what anyone says this game is just better when you are playing with friends. Solo is fun as a challenge but you are tying one hand behind your back deliberately when you choose to solo. Every class is better as part of a group, especially a group you can depend on.

You can give rr boost to whoever join scenario as heal or tank.

I am still baffled how many people think that a match maker generated match would not put people in groups. They ARE in groups, they CAN synergize. It makes it even easier for a match maker to build good parties if people queue solo. What they will lack is communictaion, but match quality will still considerably improve.

The kicker is, what you implement as optimization approach. For that, I'd ask to read my initial posts in this topic, where I described an implementation concept that proved to be working in actual business cases, that allows to fine tune the match maker quite well.

The most basic and easy to be done thing is to give info which archetypes are at queue.
It is beyond me why this is not implemented since they got it for ranked matches.

Nameless wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2024 12:53 pm The most basic and easy to be done thing is to give info which archetypes are at queue.
It is beyond me why this is not implemented since they got it for ranked matches.

Not wrong, but for that, the match maker has to aim to build balanced parties in the first place. At the moment it is built to create matches for premade parties. That leads to filling up matches with what ever it can grab, while the side with more players gets to have premades. So that needs to be considered aswell. If you use an optimization algorithm, it is just the framework to balance teams. What you balance depends on the fitting function you put in there.

Unfortunately, regardless of what is done regarding matchmaking, SC's and certain classes will still be changed to suit/benefit those who influence game design. Its pretty obvious, even to a novice like me