Duukar wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:29 am
Having played a WL to 26 I can very easily see how much more I can contribute to a city with a WL that I simply cannot do on a WH. I
I personally think part of the reason why it "feels" worse that a 60-40 winrate is because of how some Orderlings are manipulating the luxary possition of how you can pick your enemies.
As long as Tibdum and pugfriends keep taking one for the team and going in early instead of playing it smart and queueing late, to not get against TUP. The smarter Orderlings will spend the sweet lazy time and wait till more manageable known destro premades are in.
You search and see who is in from the top warbands, and depending on who you have in your order comp you try to target aim to go for a fight you find yourself more suited for.
"oh **** we got everyone on alts and have to fill 2parties with puggies, ok lets super late queue"
"oh we have people on mains and events event night, alright lets queue for the top3 destro and go early"
"oh its 5star and we are pussies, let's go late and be greedy"
You just dont see that culture on destro. They build, they queue and they fight.
I am to blame, because Im doing nothing to better the situation, my guild is to blame, and all of order is to blame for our culture. We have grown used to how it is and we are not trying to change it. Now do we have a problem with our orvr guilds not upprioritizing cities? Aboslutely, I personally lost interest for both the campaign and cities after I noticed ill never get my full 24stack in as I cant plan for when they happend. I attend when I can, I help guildies get their crests and hope they dont quit after they get some pieces. But yet till this day still never manged to queue with the same 23other guys for two instances, ever!.
If Order couldnt manipulate the instances like we are, I strongly suspect we would see the 80-20% winrates. The matter of a fact that Fenryls slashfive warband has been the best order-main force to fight, speaks volume for our realm. I even had periods of time in the past where I went and joined that to see the toptier citymeta, learn observe and experience how its done.
Solution for this? Well.. the yoloqueu instance1 puggies still get their crests while having no intention on improving. The guilds and premades are still struggling to even get their people online to put up a fight and will continue latequeueing, and in the middle there are all the decent fights who we dont menion. The close ones, both sides having pugfill, 300 to 150 kill instances where people enjoy themselves no matter who PVE's down the lord in stage3 faster.
The devs can throw buffs towards the overrepresented order-pug classes, stop enemies from searching for guildtags for enemyrealm, or do something to the matchmaking. But the mentality of Order still remains, and will still be the issue.
Afraid it's not the order mentality, it's the human mentality. I have no doubt that, if the population was the reverse, we would have the exact same situation, only mirrored. Order has the luxury this time. I think making the opposite realm unsearchable is the correct answer, as there really isn't a reason you should be able to look them up in the first place.
Foofmonger wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:38 pm
The mobility issues are in comparison to other classes, , not to yourself. The reality is, 3 out of the 4 classes in this "mirror" get a mobility "jump skill" with the Mara being the only one who can't do that.
Why can't they do it? Because they are far tankier, which is balanced. Removing the tankiness without increasing the mobility is not a great idea to balance the realms or this particular mirror. What I am suggesting puts them more in line with the playstyle of the ASW/MSH/WL, and to stop being such an "outlier" that is balanced differently.
ASW has only a 20s pounce, no charge, no rootbreaker. MSH has 10s pounce and 55s charge, but no rootbreaker. Mara has no pounce, charge, rootbreaker. It's the WL that's the outlier here.
You can't really weigh rootbreakers, charges, and pounces as equivalent is terms of the gains of mobility each of them gets a class. Not having a pounce ability is still an outlier for the Marauder no matter how you want to say it. In terms of raw mobility power, its very clearly pounces > charges > rootbreakers in general use cases. The Marauder being the only class that doesn't have the "fastest way to close distances with a target" is still something that the Mara can't do that the other 3 can, even if the Mara can break roots. The root breaker is an ability every single MDPS class gets, which is why the ASW and RSH don't have it (also cause giving a root breaker to SWs/SHs would be very strong on a class that can swap over to do something at ranged, even inefficiently).
Re: City Winner History?
Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:09 am
by Elemint
Foofmonger wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:54 am
You can't really weigh rootbreakers, charges, and pounces as equivalent is terms of the gains of mobility each of them gets a class. Not having a pounce ability is still an outlier for the Marauder no matter how you want to say it. In terms of raw mobility power, its very clearly pounces > charges > rootbreakers in general use cases. The Marauder being the only class that doesn't have the "fastest way to close distances with a target" is still something that the Mara can't do that the other 3 can, even if the Mara can break roots. The root breaker is an ability every single MDPS class gets, which is why the ASW and RSH don't have it (also cause giving a root breaker to SWs/SHs would be very strong on a class that can swap over to do something at ranged, even inefficiently).
You can't really weigh anything then, without it devolving into an endless forum "theorycrafting discussion" which gets more and more removed from both the original point and reality by every subsequent post. There is nothing wrong with marauder's mobility, WL has too much of it. You've yet to touch on marauder trivializing order's physical damage, making BW (and engi) the only class that could apply reasonable pressure to it. I am not comparing it to the mirrors or whatever now, i'm comparing it to ALL dps in the game. What drawback does the marauder have that makes the insane proc balanced? If Crushing Blows ever gets fixed, we'll enter a whole new era of order forum whine.
Foofmonger wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:54 am
You can't really weigh rootbreakers, charges, and pounces as equivalent is terms of the gains of mobility each of them gets a class. Not having a pounce ability is still an outlier for the Marauder no matter how you want to say it. In terms of raw mobility power, its very clearly pounces > charges > rootbreakers in general use cases. The Marauder being the only class that doesn't have the "fastest way to close distances with a target" is still something that the Mara can't do that the other 3 can, even if the Mara can break roots. The root breaker is an ability every single MDPS class gets, which is why the ASW and RSH don't have it (also cause giving a root breaker to SWs/SHs would be very strong on a class that can swap over to do something at ranged, even inefficiently).
You can't really weigh anything then, without it devolving into an endless forum "theorycrafting discussion" which gets more and more removed from both the original point and reality by every subsequent post. There is nothing wrong with marauder's mobility, WL has too much of it. You've yet to touch on marauder trivializing order's physical damage, making BW (and engi) the only class that could apply reasonable pressure to it. I am not comparing it to the mirrors or whatever now, i'm comparing it to ALL dps in the game. What drawback does the marauder have that makes the insane proc balanced? If Crushing Blows ever gets fixed, we'll enter a whole new era of order forum whine.
I'm not disagreeing that it needs a nerf, I already agreed with ya. Why you taking that weird position now? The Marauder gets increased survivability for the same reason the ASW does, because of the stance system being a crappy mechanic where the only benefit is those procs. This proc is just overtuned in terms of how much armor pen it reduces.
Yes you can still weigh things lol, what silly logic. To act like gap closers are the same levels of mobility as anti-cc breaks is disingenuous at best as a premise. Frankly, if I had used the word "gap closer" instead of "mobility" above this would all be a moot point.
Now, one can take the position that yes, the WL has too much mobility and not that the Mara has too little, but that's a philosophical opinion on "how much mobility should be in the game". If you want to nerf monstro proc, and not boost mara mobility, then nerf WL mobility that's a perfectly fair and reasonable argument if that's what you're saying, as is the one I am making. Either or is functionally fine.
Re: City Winner History?
Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:38 am
by Elemint
Foofmonger wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:30 am
I'm not disagreeing that it needs a nerf, I already agreed with ya. Why you taking that weird position now?
Yes you can still weigh things lol, what silly logic. To act like gap closers are the same levels of mobility as anti-cc breaks is disingenuous at best as a premise. Frankly, if I had used the word "gap closer" instead of "mobility" above this would all be a moot point.
Now, one can take the position that yes, the WL has too much mobility and not that the Mara has too little, but that's a philosophical opinion on "how much mobility should be in the game". If you want to nerf monstro proc, and not boost mara mobility, then nerf WL mobility that's a perfectly fair and reasonable argument if that's what you're saying, as is the one I am making. Either or is functionally fine.
Because a gapcloser without a rootbreaker is really not a big deal. You can get punted, you can get rooted, you will be snared, you have to be careful when you're pouncing out of heal/guard range so you don't get blown up. Marauder has a much easier time with these than a SW for example. A SW can get there. A mara can get there twice. A WL can keep there.
Your arguments have an implication that marauder is balanced as is, and in order to take something you have to give something back. It might be the case right now, since BWs can deal with them. It certainly won't be the case when the morale stopper gets fixed.
Foofmonger wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:30 am
I'm not disagreeing that it needs a nerf, I already agreed with ya. Why you taking that weird position now?
Yes you can still weigh things lol, what silly logic. To act like gap closers are the same levels of mobility as anti-cc breaks is disingenuous at best as a premise. Frankly, if I had used the word "gap closer" instead of "mobility" above this would all be a moot point.
Now, one can take the position that yes, the WL has too much mobility and not that the Mara has too little, but that's a philosophical opinion on "how much mobility should be in the game". If you want to nerf monstro proc, and not boost mara mobility, then nerf WL mobility that's a perfectly fair and reasonable argument if that's what you're saying, as is the one I am making. Either or is functionally fine.
Because a gapcloser without a rootbreaker is really not a big deal. You can get punted, you can get rooted, you will be snared, you have to be careful when you're pouncing out of heal/guard range so you don't get blown up. Marauder has a much easier time with these than a SW for example. A SW can get there. A mara can get there twice. A WL can keep there.
I'm not denying that a rootbreaker has 0 impact on mobility, but this thing all depends on how you frame it. A mara can not "get there" twice, a root breaker doesn't help you actually "catch" anyone, or close gaps, it lets you prevent yourself from your mobility being reduced by CC. Functionally, it does speed up the time it takes for one to get to their targets "in some" situations. This is why it is the "worst" form of mobility, because it's not inherently always going to do anything or be useful. Furthermore, it does not actually give a significant bonus to closing gaps assuming the target is actively kiting you and there isn't some other factor that allows you to catch them (such as a pull). So a Mara "can't get there twice", in your example (they can get their twice in reality when we factor in pull, but thats not part of the current discussion), that's not what a root-break functionally does at all. To fix your example: a SW can get there, A Mara can get there and stay there sometimes, and a WL can stay there forever.
Functionally, as you note, what root-breaks really do is allow sometime to "stay" on a target that they have "already" closed the gap with, without the use of another mobility skill or CC, the root break doesn't actually help you get to someone who is already at distance from you (besides allowing you to run at them at normal speed, unimpeded by a root or a snare). Whereas abilities like Pounce and Shdaow Step allow you to "rapidly close gaps" with targets. Charges work differently than either, and allow the user to either close or create distance, but they certainly help close gaps better than root breaks (but not as well as leaps).
Regardless, like we spoke about earlier, if you believe that the WL has too much mobility (I don't) then that's your opinion and it's a valid one. I don't disagree that they have more than others. My opinion is the Mara has too little. I'm happy to agree to disagree.
Foofmonger wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:38 pm
The mobility issues are in comparison to other classes, , not to yourself. The reality is, 3 out of the 4 classes in this "mirror" get a mobility "jump skill" with the Mara being the only one who can't do that.
Why can't they do it? Because they are far tankier, which is balanced. Removing the tankiness without increasing the mobility is not a great idea to balance the realms or this particular mirror. What I am suggesting puts them more in line with the playstyle of the ASW/MSH/WL, and to stop being such an "outlier" that is balanced differently.
ASW has only a 20s pounce, no charge, no rootbreaker. MSH has 10s pounce and 55s charge, but no rootbreaker. Mara has no pounce, charge, rootbreaker. It's the WL that's the outlier here.
You can't really weigh rootbreakers, charges, and pounces as equivalent is terms of the gains of mobility each of them gets a class. Not having a pounce ability is still an outlier for the Marauder no matter how you want to say it. In terms of raw mobility power, its very clearly pounces > charges > rootbreakers in general use cases. The Marauder being the only class that doesn't have the "fastest way to close distances with a target" is still something that the Mara can't do that the other 3 can, even if the Mara can break roots. The root breaker is an ability every single MDPS class gets, which is why the ASW and RSH don't have it (also cause giving a root breaker to SWs/SHs would be very strong on a class that can swap over to do something at ranged, even inefficiently).
Just want to quickly point out that Mara is a good bit more mobile than ASW (though with less shitty WP that gap may close but will always be in Maras favor due to charge + root immune); it sounds really counter intuitive if you don't play ASW but it is true.
ASW has only a 20s pounce, no charge, no rootbreaker. MSH has 10s pounce and 55s charge, but no rootbreaker. Mara has no pounce, charge, rootbreaker. It's the WL that's the outlier here.
You can't really weigh rootbreakers, charges, and pounces as equivalent is terms of the gains of mobility each of them gets a class. Not having a pounce ability is still an outlier for the Marauder no matter how you want to say it. In terms of raw mobility power, its very clearly pounces > charges > rootbreakers in general use cases. The Marauder being the only class that doesn't have the "fastest way to close distances with a target" is still something that the Mara can't do that the other 3 can, even if the Mara can break roots. The root breaker is an ability every single MDPS class gets, which is why the ASW and RSH don't have it (also cause giving a root breaker to SWs/SHs would be very strong on a class that can swap over to do something at ranged, even inefficiently).
Just want to quickly point out that Mara is a good bit more mobile than ASW (though with less shitty WP that gap may close but will always be in Maras favor due to charge + root immune); it sounds really counter intuitive if you don't play ASW but it is true.
I think the Mara is more mobile than the ASW, no argument there. The combination of charge + rootbreaker ouweighs the quickness of the gap closer of shadowstep.
I also firmly believe the Mara/WL (and all MDPS to a degree) should be more mobile than any of the hybrid off-archetype MDPS classes, as they have the option to switch and do "something" else, which true-archetype MDPS doesn't have that flexibility (so for RDPS, it's the ability to effect combat from ranged, for Supports, its the ability to heal, and for Tanks is the ability to guard/protect/do tank stuff).
I think maybe the ASW needs a charge equivalent to balance out with SH anyway personally.
Re: City Winner History?
Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:02 am
by Elemint
Aye. And just as you argue that a rootbreaker alone isn't enough, i argue that a gapcloser alone isn't enough. Every class you want to "catch" has a way to open the distance again. When they do, you have no hope of catching up to them until your pounce goes off CD again.
I also firmly believe the Mara/WL (and all MDPS) should be more mobile than any of the hybrid off-archetype MDPS classes, as they have the option to switch and do "something" else, which true-archetype MDPS doesn't have that flexibility (so for RDPS, it's the ability to effect combat from ranged, for Supports, its the ability to heal, and for Tanks is the ability to guard/protect/do tank stuff).
This is exactly my point, they ARE more mobile. I also think the game doesn't need any more mobility than it already has.
, not to yourself. The reality is, 3 out of the 4 classes in this "mirror" get a mobility "jump skill" with the Mara being the only one who can't do that.