Return of Reckoning

Toldavf wrote:Thunderous blows can be parried so i don't know where you got that from.

Damn my bad, i was refering to CC

Don't shitpost in the balance discussion forum. User has been issued a warning for this - Penril.

dontcomplainx wrote:

Toldavf wrote:Thunderous blows can be parried so i don't know where you got that from.

Damn my bad, i was refering to CC

Yeah CC is the same as FO for wl both are undefendable and both actually allow the classes to do damage.

Penril wrote:So far some people seem to think that DC is not an issue, but other skills might be. So we are gonna change the focus of the discussion:

1) Is it an issue that Maras have a wounds/armor/heal debuff? Should they lose one of those Y/N?
2) Which one should they lose/have nerfed, and why?

1.
The issue in the sav is armor debuff and wounds

Now you can't remove the former, destro needs a strong armor debuff to deal with high armor tanks like IB and KOTBS

But there is no justification for CC to be undefendable AND have a higher debuff value than BGs armor debuff at max hate

This latter point brings up the real issue; the ability scaling, take TB highest wounds debuff in the game with the longest uptime while having high tooltip dmg to compensate for the lack of pb

Why? Does it require you to use an "inferior playstyle" like kotbs and slayer 2h? Do you need to to blow your built up like WE? Do you need to use a particular aura or use basically 2 tactic slots in the base of Bg?

If TB requires little investment/requirement then it should not have such a huge debuff value and uptime

Additionally CC should not have a greater debuff value than max hate Bg debuff espically if it's undefendable

TenTonHammer wrote:

Penril wrote:So far some people seem to think that DC is not an issue, but other skills might be. So we are gonna change the focus of the discussion:

1) Is it an issue that Maras have a wounds/armor/heal debuff? Should they lose one of those Y/N?
2) Which one should they lose/have nerfed, and why?

1.
The issue in the sav is armor debuff and wounds

Now you can't remove the former, destro needs a strong armor debuff to deal with high armor tanks like IB and KOTBS

But there is no justification for CC to be undefendable AND have a higher debuff value than BGs armor debuff at max hate

This latter point brings up the real issue; the ability scaling, take TB highest wounds debuff in the game with the longest uptime while having high tooltip dmg to compensate for the lack of pb

Why? Does it require you to use an "inferior playstyle" like kotbs and slayer 2h? Do you need to to blow your built up like WE? Do you need to use a particular aura or use basically 2 tactic slots in the base of Bg?

If TB requires little investment/requirement then it should not have such a huge debuff value and uptime

Additionally CC should not have a greater debuff value than max hate Bg debuff espically if it's undefendable

Whats the obsession with making mara inferior at debuffing then a black guard? Cutting claw is a mirror to force opportunity both have the same value for debuffing and both are undefendable. The only difference between the two skills is that the lions version has slightly lower tool tip damage due to them being a pet class.

As for thunderous blows i and most of the maras i talked to agree that the up time was to large 10 seconds would of been enough with the 5 second cd. As for being the highest wounds debuff in the game it shares that title with devestate, and while as you correctly point out the 2hander slayers style is inferiour that's a slayer issue for another thread.

As was pointed out the black guard wounds debuff has potential to be aoe while the marauder one never will be so it makes sense there's should be slightly larger.

Toldavf wrote:

TenTonHammer wrote:

Penril wrote:So far some people seem to think that DC is not an issue, but other skills might be. So we are gonna change the focus of the discussion:

1) Is it an issue that Maras have a wounds/armor/heal debuff? Should they lose one of those Y/N?
2) Which one should they lose/have nerfed, and why?

1.
The issue in the sav is armor debuff and wounds

Now you can't remove the former, destro needs a strong armor debuff to deal with high armor tanks like IB and KOTBS

But there is no justification for CC to be undefendable AND have a higher debuff value than BGs armor debuff at max hate

This latter point brings up the real issue; the ability scaling, take TB highest wounds debuff in the game with the longest uptime while having high tooltip dmg to compensate for the lack of pb

Why? Does it require you to use an "inferior playstyle" like kotbs and slayer 2h? Do you need to to blow your built up like WE? Do you need to use a particular aura or use basically 2 tactic slots in the base of Bg?

If TB requires little investment/requirement then it should not have such a huge debuff value and uptime

Additionally CC should not have a greater debuff value than max hate Bg debuff espically if it's undefendable

Whats the obsession with making mara inferior at debuffing then a black guard? Cutting claw is a mirror to force opportunity both have the same value for debuffing and both are undefendable. The only difference between the two skills is that the lions version has slightly lower tool tip damage due to them being a pet class.

As for thunderous blows i and most of the maras i talked to agree that the up time was to large 10 seconds would of been enough with the 5 second cd. As for being the highest wounds debuff in the game it shares that title with devestate, and while as you correctly point out the 2hander slayers style is inferiour that's a slayer issue for another thread.

As was pointed out the black guard wounds debuff has potential to be aoe while the marauder one never will be so it makes sense there's should be slightly larger.

Becuase that's the reality of things that's maras superior debuff values make BG nonviable and I'm BG biased

While CC shares the same scaling as FO, the fact of the matter is that WLs don't spec much farther into the tree after FO while Mara goes all the way up to DS so it has a far higher value due to point investment

Additionally while yes I shares similar values with devestate the latter requires 2H and no rage drop hence my argument that TB is not justified due to little risk or investment


The point about AoE wounds debuff from BG, it requires 2 tactic slots , what advantage does that give in group play which is all about focusing down targets so you can't really take advantage of wounds debuffs on multiple targets? Even then to do it in an AoE you basically needs to run 2h Bg for CD hence the "inferior playstyle" point again

TenTonHammer wrote:

Toldavf wrote:

TenTonHammer wrote: 1.
The issue in the sav is armor debuff and wounds

Now you can't remove the former, destro needs a strong armor debuff to deal with high armor tanks like IB and KOTBS

But there is no justification for CC to be undefendable AND have a higher debuff value than BGs armor debuff at max hate

This latter point brings up the real issue; the ability scaling, take TB highest wounds debuff in the game with the longest uptime while having high tooltip dmg to compensate for the lack of pb

Why? Does it require you to use an "inferior playstyle" like kotbs and slayer 2h? Do you need to to blow your built up like WE? Do you need to use a particular aura or use basically 2 tactic slots in the base of Bg?

If TB requires little investment/requirement then it should not have such a huge debuff value and uptime

Additionally CC should not have a greater debuff value than max hate Bg debuff espically if it's undefendable

Whats the obsession with making mara inferior at debuffing then a black guard? Cutting claw is a mirror to force opportunity both have the same value for debuffing and both are undefendable. The only difference between the two skills is that the lions version has slightly lower tool tip damage due to them being a pet class.

As for thunderous blows i and most of the maras i talked to agree that the up time was to large 10 seconds would of been enough with the 5 second cd. As for being the highest wounds debuff in the game it shares that title with devestate, and while as you correctly point out the 2hander slayers style is inferiour that's a slayer issue for another thread.

As was pointed out the black guard wounds debuff has potential to be aoe while the marauder one never will be so it makes sense there's should be slightly larger.

Becuase that's the reality of things that's maras superior debuff values make BG nonviable and I'm BG biased

While CC shares the same scaling as FO, the fact of the matter is that WLs don't spec much farther into the tree after FO while Mara goes all the way up to DS so it has a far higher value due to point investment

Additionally while yes I shares similar values with devestate the latter requires 2H and no rage drop hence my argument that TB is not justified due to little risk or investment


The point about AoE wounds debuff from BG, it requires 2 tactic slots , what advantage does that give in group play which is all about focusing down targets so you can't really take advantage of wounds debuffs on multiple targets? Even then to do it in an AoE you basically needs to run 2h Bg for CD hence the "inferior playstyle" point again

so you clearly admit u just doing it in order to push ur agenda towards BG. u not interested at all about marauder balance discussion u want BG balance , and seems marauder needs to pay and be nerfed so ur bg can be regarded better? whats next nerf bo or chosen so bg become more desirable?.

because ur wounds debuffs not just give u 120 but aswell provide u with 50% haste. something marauder doesnt have . and in most case rely in his partnership with a choppa .

slayer 2hs three is a choice the same way 2hs is for choppa . than skavenslayer is superior to 2hs doesnt hide the fact 2hs for slayer is viable and in most cases for choppa is even superior when u dont have enough people to run meta game proc for dual .infact in group composition choppa 2hs needs of the mara debuff line to be efective . so u not just gimping marauder but aswell screwing over all his partners aka choppa dok dps and heck even bo and bg .

and as tesq said double marauder isnt as optimal as marauder choppa dok dps when u into a 6 man or more

Tenton makes sense though. Class balance doesn't happen in a vacuum, and the strong debuffs of mara, which overlap the debuffs of bg, contribute to bg being the least viable tank in the game because there is little reason to pick a bg when chosen+mara cover everything they do, but better.

And I don't play bg, for the record.

GodlessCrom wrote:Tenton makes sense though. Class balance doesn't happen in a vacuum, and the strong debuffs of mara, which overlap the debuffs of bg, contribute to bg being the least viable tank in the game because there is little reason to pick a bg when chosen+mara cover everything they do, but better.

And I don't play bg, for the record.

BG is properly as tanky or more than bo and with recent changes they can even provide with more dps while remain specialy tanky going sb . the problem of bg is not its not desirable or is inferior , in good hands the bg do what he is supposed to do, tank, provide cc , and guard his mdps helping em to kill other targets .

in any case he should make a bg balance thread to get him improved . no just forum quest to try to get his opposition killed.