Return of Reckoning

Honestly every time gatekeeper opens up a wall of text I start agreeing with everything stated. I absolutely believe that people would start actively playing more if the things gatekeeper is referring to were implemented (a majority of my guild was playing when conq came out -- and then a majority left when 6 hours in a zone could result in literally nothing to show for it), i.e.:

1. Time caps on zone locks
2. BO changes to make it an active place to fight around, not just flip and leave
3. Changing the contribution system to be more like Ruin farming

among other points made across multiple threads.

dansari wrote:Honestly every time gatekeeper opens up a wall of text I start agreeing with everything stated. I absolutely believe that people would start actively playing more if the things gatekeeper is referring to were implemented (a majority of my guild was playing when conq came out -- and then a majority left when 6 hours in a zone could result in literally nothing to show for it), i.e.:

1. Time caps on zone locks
2. BO changes to make it an active place to fight around, not just flip and leave
3. Changing the contribution system to be more like Ruin farming

among other points made across multiple threads.

They usually boil down to give more stuff faster. It's not a direction we want to tackle issues from. Suppose we've mentioned that a few times. But hey, wherever he can justify building that wall right?

wargrimnir wrote: They usually boil down to give more stuff faster. It's not a direction we want to tackle issues from. Suppose we've mentioned that a few times. But hey, wherever he can justify building that wall right?

With all due respect man, I disagree. I DONT want anything faster at all. Which is why I have tried to state many times over that you guys can tweak the earn rates on all this stuff. I have never once said I want anything faster... Never once complained about SC gear "costing too much" etc either. I think that an unfair characterization of my points and maybe I didnt explain myself clear enough but that is NOT what I am trying to do here... I am trying to make it more a SLOWER but methodological "grind" for gear... Which players enjoy and often like when playing MMOs. What many players dislike is RNG + RNG.

Which is why I said this on the previous page (and maybe didnt emphasis this enough)

th3gatekeeper wrote: You can also tailor the currency needed/awarded to be whatever you want! If you want weapons to be hard. Make them cost 1000 for a 2H and 500 for a 1H... If you want cloaks to be easier, make those 300. Genesis pieces can be 250 each or whatever.

Id rather have a currency grind that I can work towards whatever I want, rather than RNG

The IDEA being YOU guys can make them be HARD to get and a GRIND. I have no stated "objectives" about making ANYTHING easier to get. I DO, however, have stated objectives about making them less RNG based.

"Easier" seems to all be around who you are as well. To the guy who goes into RVR once and gets a purple Subj Weapon. That was EASY! To the guy who has been around for 50 zone locks and of all the purple bags he got, never got a weapon Subj weapons are HARD.... Neither are a good system.

Guy #1 got instant gratification. Less likely to play more RVR.
Guy #2 just is frustrated.

Also, this didnt touch on my contribution for Warbands vs party discussion at all....

th3gatekeeper wrote:

wargrimnir wrote: They usually boil down to give more stuff faster. It's not a direction we want to tackle issues from. Suppose we've mentioned that a few times. But hey, wherever he can justify building that wall right?

With all due respect man, I disagree. I DONT want anything faster at all. Which is why I have tried to state many times over that you guys can tweak the earn rates on all this stuff. I have never once said I want anything faster... Never once complained about SC gear "costing too much" etc either. I think that an unfair characterization of my points and maybe I didnt explain myself clear enough but that is NOT what I am trying to do here... I am trying to make it more a SLOWER but methodological "grind" for gear... Which players enjoy and often like when playing MMOs. What many players dislike is RNG + RNG.

Which is why I said this on the previous page (and maybe didnt emphasis this enough)

th3gatekeeper wrote: You can also tailor the currency needed/awarded to be whatever you want! If you want weapons to be hard. Make them cost 1000 for a 2H and 500 for a 1H... If you want cloaks to be easier, make those 300. Genesis pieces can be 250 each or whatever.

Id rather have a currency grind that I can work towards whatever I want, rather than RNG

The IDEA being YOU guys can make them be HARD to get and a GRIND. I have no stated "objectives" about making ANYTHING easier to get. I DO, however, have stated objectives about making them less RNG based.

"Easier" seems to all be around who you are as well. To the guy who goes into RVR once and gets a purple Subj Weapon. That was EASY! To the guy who has been around for 50 zone locks and of all the purple bags he got, never got a weapon Subj weapons are HARD.... Neither are a good system.

Guy #1 got instant gratification. Less likely to play more RVR.
Guy #2 just is frustrated.

Also, this didnt touch on my contribution for Warbands vs party discussion at all....

It seems like this system will never work for you as long as RNG is a significant factor. It is both frustratingly difficult, and overwhelmingly easy, at the same time. It's also has a part to play in the game. The entire bag system is designed around it being an RNG system with a big reward if you're lucky. Not everything needs to have currency. Well, not yet anyway...

wargrimnir wrote:
They usually boil down to give more stuff faster. It's not a direction we want to tackle issues from. Suppose we've mentioned that a few times. But hey, wherever he can justify building that wall right?

I know what you guys say goes. I'm not arguing that. My only question is where in any of what he said did you get that it involved getting more things faster? I just read it several times and the only thing I see that would be involved is players actually getting more involved?

Imagine playing for 3 hours. Lets say it was a good day and you made like 20 medallions. If one genesis piece was around 200-300 you could quantify the amount of time it would take to get that set. As it stands right now you can't. People have no idea, and many people end up with duplicates. Some just write it off as something that doesn't exist. Making the RvR items purchasable doesn't make them easier to get, because I'm sure it would have a price that would be crazy high. But I bet people would try and get it as long as it didn't involve debolstering or 1k seals or something like that. I know we "don't have to have it" - but I think a lot of people would enjoy having an idea of how long they'd have to play to get that juicy carrot rather than it being totally RNG based.

I will say again I don't mean any disrespect by this post. I saw a very large gap in what was stated and a conclusion that was drawn from what was stated and gave my opinion as to what the gap was. I'm sorry if anything I said came off as offensive and I was only pointing out that nothing the Gatekeeper said was for faster gains, but merely less RNG for foreseeable gains rather than a lottery ticket. But if the staff really wants RNG (getting a bag) + RNG (getting a blue bag) + RNG (getting a genesis piece you don't have) - over get X amount of currency - get the item. Then that is their decision and I'm glad that we know that is their decision and we can just play on and see how it goes.

freshour wrote:

wargrimnir wrote:
They usually boil down to give more stuff faster. It's not a direction we want to tackle issues from. Suppose we've mentioned that a few times. But hey, wherever he can justify building that wall right?

I know what you guys say goes. I'm not arguing that. My only question is where in any of what he said did you get that it involved getting more things faster? I just read it several times and the only thing I see that would be involved is players actually getting more involved?

Imagine playing for 3 hours. Lets say it was a good day and you made like 20 medallions. If one genesis piece was around 200-300 you could quantify the amount of time it would take to get that set. As it stands right now you can't. People have no idea, and many people end up with duplicates. Some just write it off as something that doesn't exist. Making the RvR items purchasable doesn't make them easier to get, because I'm sure it would have a price that would be crazy high. But I bet people would try and get it as long as it didn't involve debolstering or 1k seals or something like that. I know we "don't have to have it" - but I think a lot of people would enjoy having an idea of how long they'd have to play to get that juicy carrot rather than it being totally RNG based.

I will say again I don't mean any disrespect by this post. I saw a very large gap in what was stated and a conclusion that was drawn from what was stated and gave my opinion as to what the gap was. I'm sorry if anything I said came off as offensive and I was only pointing out that nothing the Gatekeeper said was for faster gains, but merely less RNG for foreseeable gains rather than a lottery ticket. But if the staff really wants RNG (getting a bag) + RNG (getting a blue bag) + RNG (getting a genesis piece you don't have) - over get X amount of currency - get the item. Then that is their decision and I'm glad that we know that is their decision and we can just play on and see how it goes.

Zone locks faster.
Currency-buy for everything.

Both result in gaining stuff faster, no?

Also, regarding Imperator stuff, you might expect those to cost 160 T3 currency pieces for both. Maybe a bit more.

wargrimnir wrote: It seems like this system will never work for you as long as RNG is a significant factor. It is both frustratingly difficult, and overwhelmingly easy, at the same time. It's also has a part to play in the game. The entire bag system is designed around it being an RNG system with a big reward if you're lucky. Not everything needs to have currency. Well, not yet anyway...

I am fine with some RNG... Also I care less about what works for ME specifically and more about what appeals to the larger audience of ROR.

On the previous page, I laid out 3 main points as to why RVR is seen as frustrating. Since that point, there have been 2 posters that have already said they like the ideas, and zero against them.

The issues ar:
1) Warband vs Group vs 6 man contribution
2) Roll bonus for contribution
3) The "currency vs RNG system".

Of which you have mistakenly characterized my view that I want "no RNG" or "want things faster". Neither of which are true.

I want a system where I get to work WITH my faction and WITH my warband, not feel I am directly competing with them. This is caused through the current contribution system being too narrow/selfish which encourages zergs to BOs. If contribution was spread zone wide, it would create a much more fun and fair contribution system where you are encouraged to all work together against the other faction...

The current Roll Bonus also creates this problem in that the top 3 guys have a MASSIVE advantage over someone who might have even been in the RVR lake for 90% of the same time.... Who gets say #12th place... The #1 guy gets what, +750? The #12th place guy gets what? +150? Well thats not really "RNG" that just means he isnt even getting much RNG at a "top spot" though he was there 90% of the same time.... So thats ANOTHER piece - "evening out" the contribution bonuses. (NOTE: I didnt say remove the ROLL, which is the RNG factor... Merely evening out the NON-RNG factor).

#3) The currency Grind versus RNG bags... This is where I advocate for just making it all a currency grind (like The Ruin PQs) rather than RNG on WHAT you get in the bags.

So the RNG that happens? The ROLL when the zone locks. I think you HAVE to have this... But all the stuff that leads UP to this could be more FUN and FAIR as well as what you GET with this "roll" (plus contribution) could also be more FUN and FAIR.

As I said before... A party member gets purple. I get green. We both did the same things. He feels rewarded and that it was easy (instant gratification) I feel ripped off cause I did the same as him but got something ill never use...

If we both got "currency" that we could accumulate for said items.. Neither of us gets "instant gratification" and NEITHER of us feels "ripped off" and we BOTH feel like we were rewarded for doing a good job in RVR... We both moved "1 step closer" to what we want.

Like I said. Not "easier" but more fun and more fair. With emphasis on FUN

wargrimnir wrote:
Zone locks faster.
Currency-buy for everything.

Both result in gaining stuff faster, no?

How would the zone lock any faster with ANYTHING I said in this thread? Nothing I said modifies how fast a zone locks.
Currency-buy for everything would ONLY impact "gaining faster" if mis-priced. In fact, it would actually be quite a bit MORE/LONGER for many people who get lucky, and maybe less for OTHERS who arent as lucky.

Frankly I dont care if stuff costs 2,000 Medallions at this point. I have come to appreciate the "grind" for the gear. The reward IS the journey, not the end. The problem is, when you work (play) for several days are really no "closer" to any end. That can be frustrating. When you put in the same time as someone else, who you see get "instant gratification" and you have been doing RVR longer and might have even been there more, you get bitter. When you see 1 party get "favored" with supply carrying and you are threatened to get booted if you steal supplies or dont "stick with the warband" where your party isnt getting supplies.. It feels frustrating.

Not much in the current system actually encourages the type of behaviour you guys want to see: DEstro vs Order.

What we have right now is Destro fighting destro during RVR while also fighting order at the same time - usually one side being massively under populated.

The new "RVR Game" is more about playing "contribution" than it is fighting the opponants. The biggest reason, is the 3 I listed:
1) Contr Gain for Warbands vs Party vs 6 mans.
2) Contribution Bonus to rolls
3) RNG of Roll + WHAT you get IN the bags

All leads to a frustrating experience for MANY involved.

Well if the rewards were purchased through currency. A faster lock would mean less total currency (medallions) than a longer lock (more kills involved). I'm not sure how bag generation works but a super faster lock could yield less bags as usually there are only a couple bags anyway.

So on the whole, I would say more people would get genesis items faster on average. The the % of people getting genesis items almost instantly would be a far far less % of the total people having genesis or subjugator weapons.

The only difference is. The current system promotes a few things for contribution that I won't state as I think you guys are trying to avoid their exploitation. The system he is suggesting promotes people just getting out in the lake and doing whatever they have fun doing and eventually regardless of what that is can have those items.

So while I will answer your question directly and say if you word it that way, yes. But if you take into consideration the avg time to achieve a genesis item I'm sure it is extremely low in some cases vs extremely long in others.

But to answer your question based on the average time each genesis piece is acquired (excluding duplicates) - I would argue that it would take probably the same amount of time if the prices were right. But you'd have people in WB's, people who just want to go and get kills getting kills, people who just want to do supply runs doing supply runs, and anytime you allow people more avenues to an end goal there is a possibility that the "fun monster" can creep in and they have a damn good time. I've never ran a server but I have ran camps, therapy sessions, group activities and I will say that end goal being static, changing the means or opening up avenues to achieve that goal makes the members more likely to be compliant and way more likely to enjoy doing so.

freshour wrote:Well if the rewards were purchased through currency. A faster lock would mean less total currency (medallions) than a longer lock (more kills involved). I'm not sure how bag generation works but a super faster lock could yield less bags as usually there are only a couple bags anyway.

So on the whole, I would say more people would get genesis items faster on average. The the % of people getting genesis items almost instantly would be a far far less % of the total people having genesis or subjugator weapons.

The only difference is. The current system promotes a few things for contribution that I won't state as I think you guys are trying to avoid their exploitation. The system he is suggesting promotes people just getting out in the lake and doing whatever they have fun doing and eventually regardless of what that is can have those items.

So while I will answer your question directly and say if you word it that way, yes. But if you take into consideration the avg time to achieve a genesis item I'm sure it is extremely low in some cases vs extremely long in others.

But to answer your question based on the average time each genesis piece is acquired (excluding duplicates) - I would argue that it would take probably the same amount of time if the prices were right. But you'd have people in WB's, people who just want to go and get kills getting kills, people who just want to do supply runs doing supply runs, and anytime you allow people more avenues to an end goal there is a possibility that the "fun monster" can creep in and they have a damn good time. I've never ran a server but I have ran camps, therapy sessions, group activities and I will say that end goal being static, changing the means or opening up avenues to achieve that goal makes the members more likely to be compliant and way more likely to enjoy doing so.

See if it were up to me, the "average time" would increase. I dont know all the #s to quantify this... But I know for a FACT some people get Purple and Subj weapons on their first few times in RVR (yes VERY lucky) and I also know guys who cut their wrists doing RVR to get the same cloak over and over each Purple Bag.

So the "average" time to get "X" item is actually determined by the DEV pricing and nothing else.

If a weapon costs 1000 medallions, will that increase or decrease the time to get that weapon compared to today? Well... IDK. I dont have the metrics. I cant help but think that for MANY people it would increase the time to get it, and for some it might decrease (depending on their RNG)... But I CAN tell you that it would be a more enjoyable experience for ALL and also remove the "instant gratification monster" aspect of RVR (something I am 100% onboard with BTW and think does plague many video games).

So "faster" acquisition? Thats up to YOU GUYS. But creating a RVR system that creates camaraderie? - THIS is what is missing in ROR IMO. Let us fight the OTHER faction... not our own

<3 what you guys are doing. I am not voicing this to be "disgruntled" but merely state my opinion and will live if you disagree with me, but I want to make sure you disagree with my REAL opinion and not dismissing it by saying "wants stuff faster" and "doesnt want RNG" which neither is true and I hope you know that wargrimnir. I appreciate the hard work and your willingness to read my walls of text

Which is why he qualified it by saying you can tweak quantity as needed. Yesterday, as an example, we were in Black Crag. Probably spent 4 or 5 hours in BC. Destro knocked down both doors, but order wiped them on the Lord. Order then takes back the zone. Order is elated! A good lock for sure with great renown. Most of my group was top 20. Thought at least some of us had a chance at a good bag. After the roll, I think one person was able to get a blue bag, if that (there were no purple bags even though the zone was hotly contested after EU prime into NA prime). Immediately after the roll: "wow I hate this system" flooded the chat because let's face it: for the majority of people it's gold or nothing. For the next group it may be "hey a purple would be ok" and for some "ehh i might get lucky and get a Genesis piece I don't already have." Green and white is just vendor cash for most.

Additionally, the people who win gold bags consistently are the people that know how to work the system, run in fotm setups, etc. These people are already at full conq, some on multiple toons. So what this system really does is continually pushes the casual player (even one that runs in premades - even though those premades might not be fotm or high rr) to show little to nothing for their hours in a zone. Gatekeeper's proposed changes, in my opinion, would make RVR fun and rewarding without making conq "too easy to get" for the casual player.