Return of Reckoning

peterthepan3 wrote: * EB is very good due to its hate generation component, chance to (as Penril said) wounds debuff and more, ease of access, and the X of hits it does in a short period of time.

Why keep talking about wounds debuffs as something native in blackguard class? no it is not the wounds debuff tactic require spend much more points in malice path and require lose a tactic slot, and a critical hit.

Why make the kotbs a elemental damaging attack, withouth any requeriment in tactic slot, either spend as much points as hight the wounds debuff tactic is.

Kotbs has too many elemental damage attacks, the dot can stack 3 times isn't it? the damage shield is up there all the time, doesn't even need a cooldown, all out assault is up there withouth need a cooldown, shield of the sun is broken in this server procing from all attacks, not like it did on live server procing one time each 2 seconds... they even have an automatic elemental debuff aura, uncleanseable and withouth require any cooldown because auras are independent of global cooldown timer.

Kotbs it is already doing too much elemental damage for add, even more, withouth any requeriment.

And after all this, you have to add they have runefang tactic, which adds a bunch of strengh in the class.

The class itself it is overperforming, they don't need add another overperforming tool.

Torquemadra wrote:

th3gatekeeper wrote:

peterthepan3 wrote:I echo Penril and Volgograd's thoughts, and believe that we must compare it against other tanks if we are to deduce whether or not it is overperforming:

So I guess my thought (I posted in more wall-o-text format) is why not just MATCH these two abilities to the SM/BO knowing that the abilities do not get supported the same.

Make Chosen's Spirit Damage and MATCH the SM's tool tip damage.
Knights - make on par with BOs version for tooltip damage.

Both are still "not as good" because Chosen cant double debuff and Knights dont get crit tactic like BOs.

So its atleast bringing it "up to par" in terms of tooltip, and itll still be weaker than those other classes.

Again, I would propose making these abilities tier 3, and bumping the current ones down to tier 2. Seems like this is overall the best avenue to deploy.

Eventually we need to discuss the EZmode auras on these tanks - which will bring them back down to earth.

This would be a massive buff to dps knights/chosens using shields and this is not an acceptable premise given the already huge survivability benefit a shield gives. Ether dance has GREATWEAPON requirement, until that is set its not happening in terms of dialing up raw damage.

Good point Torq. I am all for bumping this UP the mastery to tier 3 which then if a SNB user wanted to forgo the right tree and resist buff/debuff and invest in the left tree and forgo ITS benefits (crit, rending) then sure...

Or, as you said too. Just make a greatweapon requirement and frankly I am all for that option as well.

Is that in the cards at all as an option?

Lektroluv wrote:

peterthepan3 wrote: * EB is very good due to its hate generation component, chance to (as Penril said) wounds debuff and more, ease of access, and the X of hits it does in a short period of time.

Why keep talking about wounds debuffs as something native in blackguard class? no it is not the wounds debuff tactic require spend much more points in malice path and require lose a tactic slot, and a critical hit.

Why make the kotbs a elemental damaging attack, withouth any requeriment in tactic slot, either spend as much points as hight the wounds debuff tactic is.

Kotbs has too many elemental damage attacks, the dot can stack 3 times isn't it? the damage shield is up there all the time, doesn't even need a cooldown, all out assault is up there withouth need a cooldown, shield of the sun is broken in this server procing from all attacks, not like it did on live server procing one time each 2 seconds... they even have an automatic elemental debuff aura, uncleanseable and withouth require any cooldown because auras are independent of global cooldown timer.

Kotbs it is already doing too much elemental damage for add, even more, withouth any requeriment.

And after all this, you have to add they have runefang tactic, which adds a bunch of strengh in the class.

The class itself it is overperforming, they don't need add another overperforming tool.

Clearly you have never played the class. Is it not a requirement to have a 40/40 to post here? The dot you are speaking of is useless. The elemental damage tactic is garbage...

I have been playing with the skill for giggles the last couple of nights and you lose a lot for very little gain. I wsa running about 730 STR and 350ish base weaponskill...with Runefang up and critting the ability was hitting for around 235ish. It is underperforming since you lose survivability to get it. I would agree with switching it to some kind of elemental damage or an autoattack chance.

P.S. We all know changes are coming to the knight/chosen. Yes, all classes have underperforming skills but this topic is for knights..not other classes.

Lektroluv wrote:

peterthepan3 wrote: * EB is very good due to its hate generation component, chance to (as Penril said) wounds debuff and more, ease of access, and the X of hits it does in a short period of time.

Why keep talking about wounds debuffs as something native in blackguard class? no it is not the wounds debuff tactic require spend much more points in malice path and require lose a tactic slot, and a critical hit.

Why make the kotbs a elemental damaging attack, withouth any requeriment in tactic slot, either spend as much points as hight the wounds debuff tactic is.

Kotbs has too many elemental damage attacks, the dot can stack 3 times isn't it? the damage shield is up there all the time, doesn't even need a cooldown, all out assault is up there withouth need a cooldown, shield of the sun is broken in this server procing from all attacks, not like it did on live server procing one time each 2 seconds... they even have an automatic elemental debuff aura, uncleanseable and withouth require any cooldown because auras are independent of global cooldown timer.

Kotbs it is already doing too much elemental damage for add, even more, withouth any requeriment.

And after all this, you have to add they have runefang tactic, which adds a bunch of strengh in the class.

The class itself it is overperforming, they don't need add another overperforming tool.

I didn't say it was unique; I said that enraged beating can proc wounds debuff, serves a secondary purpose via the replenishing of its career mechanic (hate), and has very high damage vs low position in tree. What are you failing to understand?

If you aren't spending wounds debuff (and therefore aa haste) as a 2h offensive BG, you're doing it wrong.

The only real question is whether or not the abilities do more or less damage in 3 seconds than the kotbs/chosen can do with other direct damage abilties plus aa (taking proc into account). If they are doing less damage, buff them. If they are doing more damage, they don't need a buff.

With respect to proc, I guess Relentless has a better chance of triggering CS or other 'to hit' buffs because of the faster hit rate. But the effect would be fairly minimal. Are there any other significant 'to hit' proc on either class that would benefit from a higher hit rate of the channelled abilities.

Chosens lvl 40 Relentless tooltip damage is 272 per hit. Sounds neat and all, but low WS along with the damage reductions from toughness, armor, guard and all that makes it not worthwhile. Since Path of Dread abilities are focused on Great Weapons (with Oppressing Blows tactic and Rending Blade which require 2h), I think making it Great Weapon only, Spirit damage along with a small tooltip damage buff would make this skill a worthwile option for 2h Chosen.

Changing it to spirit/elemental damage is enough of a damage buff on its own IMO.

Question: is turning MF to Elemental damage a good idea? Order lacks a good Ele debuff anyway (the best they have is KotBS aura, which debuffs for around 120ish IF they spend several points on the right tree). How much does a KotBS damage increases with Mighty Soul? Chosen on the other hand could rely on Sorc spirit debuff. So I'm not sure turning them to Elemental/Spirit will really solve anything; maybe those of you who want to buff these skills should focus on something else (adding an effect to them, increasing the physical damage by a certain margin, etc.).

Penril wrote:Question: is turning MF to Elemental damage a good idea? Order lacks a good Ele debuff anyway (the best they have is KotBS aura, which debuffs for around 120ish IF they spend several points on the right tree). How much does a KotBS damage increases with Mighty Soul? Chosen on the other hand could rely on Sorc spirit debuff. So I'm not sure turning them to Elemental/Spirit will really solve anything; maybe those of you who want to buff these skills should focus on something else (adding an effect to them, increasing the physical damage by a certain margin, etc.).

You have some good points. I haven't tried Mighty Soul in ages because it's so bad.

Tankbeardz wrote:

Penril wrote:Question: is turning MF to Elemental damage a good idea? Order lacks a good Ele debuff anyway (the best they have is KotBS aura, which debuffs for around 120ish IF they spend several points on the right tree). How much does a KotBS damage increases with Mighty Soul? Chosen on the other hand could rely on Sorc spirit debuff. So I'm not sure turning them to Elemental/Spirit will really solve anything; maybe those of you who want to buff these skills should focus on something else (adding an effect to them, increasing the physical damage by a certain margin, etc.).

You have some good points. I haven't tried Mighty Soul in ages because it's so bad.

Well, its bad when you can get Vigilance and also get a better tough aura from using Mastery in Vigilance tree... So yeah.

if Mighty Soul turned ALL your damage into Elemental instead of Physical, then you might have a valid reason to spec into that tree.

Penril - I can say turning Relentless into Spirit would HELP, but I agree it wouldnt solve the issue. Spirit has a lower resist % than most players armor %, which is why Ravage (even after the severe nerf) still does significantly more damage than Cleave (which I think has a higher TT?)

So Spirit would HELP, but again I think the best solution (in tandem with the already CS nerf) is to slap these bad boys in the tier 3 spot and buff the damage up on par with other classes. Its not ultra "creative" but often times the most simple solutions are the best.

Now, if you really wanted to add value to these abilities, I had made an aura change proposal that was declined: Outside of something LIKE that, using these as just pure damagers seems to be the best way to go and frankly, it appeals to me as both a Knight and Chosen player. One turnoff for me to those classes was always the very low damage of the classes. Bumping to tier 3 Mastery, making Spirit(chosen - I dont think KOBS would benefit much from making it ELE due to high WS), and beefing up the base damage a tad, and heck - make it require 2H it doesnt matter to me... Seems like now if a Chosen or KOBS wants to, they have a decent "damager" that could also be frontloaded with things like Tooth (chosen) and Shining Blade (Kobs) for some mediocre "burst" damage.