Return of Reckoning

I have no idea if it's possible to code the tactic to add a shield required tag to an ability, but I have a suspicion that it is not. If any devs are around, feel free to clarify whether this is possible or not.

Additionally, there is no EFFECTIVE offensive build that I've ever heard or seen of that uses a sword and shield. SMs strongest hitting ability is Ether Dance and that requires a greatsword. Without one, you lose another 10% damage because you can't use great weapon master too, on top of losing the raw weapon DPS of a 2 hander. Yes, Ensorcelled Agony/Deep Incision scale off strength, but that is not enough to be called an effective offensive build. Additionally, it's tough to find space for Deep Incision in a build.

Lastly, the argument that Graceful Strike is needed for when you are hit with cooldown increase debuffs does not hold water. I was curious about your assertion regarding this, because I could not for the life of me remember of EVER having been hit with any sort of cooldown increasing debuff on SM or any other Order character. So I investigated; I went over every single ability, tactic, and mastery tree of every single class on Destro, and found ONE: Bad Gas! for Squig Herder, which is at 9 points in the Stabbin' tree. If there are more, please tell me.

Leaving aside how incredibly rare Stabbin' Squig Herders are (in fact Squig Herders period are pretty rare), let's cover all bases no matter how remote. Allow me to paint a hypothetical situation here.

Bad Gas! increases the cooldowns of abilities by 5 seconds. Sure thing. Let's assume that you just got hit with this debuff the moment that you reached a target to attack, and for the purpose of this hypothetical, let's first assume that you are an offensive Khaine build. Remember while I describe this that the vast majority of SM abilities are instant cast (in fact I think Ether Dance is the only one that isn't), so we will be counting by the GCD (which is 1 second) to pay attention to time passed.

You'll start off with an Encorselled Blow to get Encorselled Agony rolling. EB is now on a 5 second CD.
Then you will usually follow with Quick Incision for a snare. QI is now on a 5 second CD, EB is now on a 4 second CD.
After you'll hit them with a Blurring Shock, for self-evident reasons. BS now has a 5 second CD, QI now has a 4 second CD, EB is now at 3 seconds.
This is the part that is usually variable. At this point, Encorselled Agony still has some time left on it, so you can skip a normal balance ability. Sudden Shift into Improved (does not use GCD) and you can use Wrath of Hoeth for the Spirit debuff. WoH is now at 5 seconds, BS is now at 4 seconds, QI has 3 seconds and EB at 2 seconds.
At this point, you'll typically use Ether Dance, which has a 8 second CD normally, with Bad Gas! on you it's 13 seconds. Ether Dance is also a 3 second channel, however, which means that once it's done, Encorselled Blow is ready for (so is QI for that matter). And by the time you get to another normal balance ability, Gryphon's Lash will be as well. Furthermore, Bad Gas! lasts for 10 seconds total, so by the time that you are done with two rotations, it will have worn off, and Bad Gas!'s cooldown is 20 seconds, so he can't immediately re-apply it.

The whole point of this very long explanation is that SM's rotations are long enough that there is no point that you will ever need to (or should) use Graceful Strike in any sort of PvP fight. Ensorcelled Blow and Gryphon's Lash are both superior as normal balance abilities, and there is always the option of skipping normal balance with Sudden Shift. As such, it is my opinion that giving a 20 second CD to Graceful Strike (in addition to a shield requirement) would not in any way affect SM's performance while afflicted with a cooldown increasing debuff, assuming the SM in question is playing correctly.

Black orc not in da face = 5 second increaser.

I've never used GS once on my SM. it's not even on my actionbars.

I think you're getting too caught up in debating your views on Graceful Strike.

Your main battle should to be convincing the RoR team that the SM should even have a decent ST punt. GL with that, because you'll need some seriously strong arguments for it.

altharion1 wrote: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:43 am I think you're getting too caught up in debating your views on Graceful Strike.

Your main battle should to be convincing the RoR team that the SM should even have a decent ST punt. GL with that, because you'll need some seriously strong arguments for it.

Given that said KB would only work with SnB, that SnB SM essentially offers nothing in group or WB play (WW, since HB no longer debuffs), and that SnB results in significantly reduced personal DPS and personal survivability (Wods arguably> anything SnB SM has, given SnB block rates are relatively mediocre)....I don't think it would require too much convincing - if the argument itself has substance.

But yes. Perhaps we are too caught up with what ability to assign such a tactic, and not the merits of implementing said tactic, I.e. is it even warranted?

Can we therefore shift the argument to tackling the following: does a SnB SM deserve/need a ST punt, and would this alleviate anything?

"does a SnB SM deserve/need a ST punt"

I would say no. The class already has extremely potent CC abilities, that also have very powerful secondary effects. An ST punt on top of this would give the class access to too much in a single spec.

Just a question changing things on SM would change same things on BO ? because it sa bit the same class with same ability.

SM in my mind absolutely deserves a single target punt. Every single other tank in the game has some way to reposition a key opponent with a ST punt; SM's attempts typically lead to a bunch of opponents being thrown around, opponents who are now immune to a plethora of other CC. Given that ST punts are typically used to separate a tank from its guarded target, or fling a vulnerable healer/ranged into your melee group, I think it's a valid assumption that they will be surrounded other enemies.

Furthermore, as I've previously stated, SM falls behind in group utility compared to IB and KoTBS. They don't have auras, nor the powerful single-target buffs that IB has through Oath Friend. Nature's Blade is good and well but requires constant pressure on the enemy to proc, which is easily shut down by the enemy team CCing the SM, and you can't control which attribute it steals unlike KoTBS auras, nor do they currently have a single target punt.

altharion1 wrote: Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:44 pm "does a SnB SM deserve/need a ST punt"

I would say no. The class already has extremely potent CC abilities, that also have very powerful secondary effects. An ST punt on top of this would give the class access to too much in a single spec.

I disagree in the strongest possible manner, and have no idea what CC abilities you are talking about.
Aethyric Grasp? A 5 second root on 4 enemies that breaks half the time they take any damage? IB and KoTBS have an identical ability.
Quick Incision? Both IB and KoTBS have 40% snares that don't require improved balance to use.
Knockdown? With the recent swapping of abilities in the Vaul tree, all tanks now have access to a 3 second KD at 9 points into a tree.
No ST punt while the other tanks have core ones.

On top of this, SM typically has slightly lower defensive capabilities than the other tanks (though this has been mitigated a bit with the recent change to Crushing Advance to make the armor buff stack with pots).

Since we are talking about SnB SM, they don't have the high damage that Khaine builds have to offer to offset the loss of group utility. We cannot give SM auras or they would simply be KoTBS clones. We can't give them defensive target buffs or they'd just be Ironbreaker 2.0. I believe we can increase their group utility through the addition of a ST punt so that people don't go "Eugh a SM, can't we get a KOTBS instead?" when they see one in their group. There's a reason that most SMs go 2 handed Khaine - because SnB defensive tank has too little to offer compared to KoTBS and IB.

Bignusty wrote: Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:45 pm Just a question changing things on SM would change same things on BO ? because it sa bit the same class with same ability.

No, they are separate classes and any changes made to SM does not change anything on BO.

I choose graceful strike over gryphon's lash when under cd increaser during a "long rotation" because it deals more damage during the 5s and emulates encorselled agony (but worse obviously) and costs less ap. This is of course unless you are hitting your opponent in the face instead of the side/back, but you did say competent player. Also bad gas/not in da face will make your sudden shift's cd increase as well. I have seen it often enough recently that it even came to my mind to have a different normal balance ability. Certain destro guilds have been running bad gas to counter our WPs.

I do, however, acknowledge the use of gryphons lash or slotting sapping strike as a method around this. Also ptp3's desired shift in arguments so....

Do I believe that SM's need a way to provide a service most other tanks can provide? Yes, absolutely. Tanks are expected in group play to bring the punts, cc, buffs, and guards while not dying.

Do I think a ST punt is the way to do it? Eh... maybe? I'm not really a fan of having the exact same things as other classes. What about making it to where a target is immune to our gusting winds. That way we can knock back everything except the target we want to stay? This would not give us both a ST punt and an AoE punt, and still allows us to provide the function of guard stripping.

Forceful Shock: Targets under the effect of your graceful strike will not be knocked back by your gusting winds. (maybe even buff the damage of gusting winds against the non-knocked target?)

other AoE knockbacks are morales or have 1mim CD or need mastery points.
SM access it as free though it's distance is weaker. It's unique for SM/BO. no other tanks have it.
hard to benefit from it is L2P issue.

you're reworking KB status of game by simply gimme ST, i'll use 1 tactic slot while keeping aoe.

how about this?
tactic turns AoE into ST. still weaker version.
little silly turning good AoE into weak ST.
oh big punt was what you wanted?
I recommend knight or IB.
or you can redesign entire tank KB.
hope you don't give everything to SM.
GL.

SM can already have, in 1 spec:

- AoE root
- Double ST snare via Quick incision > Sudden Shift > Quick incision
- AoE punt that does AoE spirit damage
- ST punt via tactic
- Knockdown with 4 seconds CC immunity for group
- Silence with 10 seconds of reduced cooldowns for group
- Morale AoE snare
- Champions Challenge ST root

Doesn't the SM have enough CC already.