Return of Reckoning

teiloh wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:05 pm Not to be adversarial, but what exactly is your 2h Knight bringing to any WB that a BG or Chosen doesn't offer? This is just a balance question, not an attack.

It looks like in those fights, ED was not proccing for WPs, and they were determined long before 20s Rampage could kick in or matter. So what was the Order advantage that caused you to win over whoever you were fighting, as you seem to be implying?

KotBS is still the best tank in the game because of all its utility it can get within a single spec. 15% more incoming healing for your group, wounds debuff, 10% more inc crit chance, AoE slow, good 10s cd punts, knockdown. Both Chosen and BG have to make hard choices in their specs leaving out different forms of utililty. Order still has higher damage with Slayer doing more raw damage than Choppa and BW doing more raw damage than Sorc (Sorc's damage is way more spread).

teiloh wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:05 pm You definitely did not face the optimal Destro setup there, which involves multiple SHs using OMW and several Zealots of WOI, and usually a Magus or more. Destro is so strong that they don't even bother bringing out their best.

We also did not have the ultimate Order setup, as at this point no Warband ever has the perfect setup. Many people geared their mains and want to gear alts. That forces even top tier guilds into somewhat suboptimal setups. Their ZLs did have WOI, but remember that it was hugely nerfed. It can be interrupted and you cannot heal while casting it. OMW can also be interrupted and it interrupts itself if you fall as much as 1 centimeter.

teiloh wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:05 pm I won't disagree though, that the top "perceived" meta for Destro and Order are fairly close, it's just that it's much harder to build (AND play) for Order. So unless you have consistent practice with a core of players, its going to be rough in a way that it's not for Destro.

I'm happy to see this more nuanced statement. And yes it is harder to build the perfect Order setup and I'm not against having a bit more variety to possible order setups.

teiloh wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:05 pm Fix these things and we'll actually close the gap significantly:

1) Providing some sort of ranged, 100% uptime 360 elemental debuff for BW as it is done for Sorcs
2) Equalizing CD reducers/increasers
3) Reversing a lot of the over-the-top nerfs to Knights
4) Equalizing morale builders
5) Equalizing speed boosts
6) Equalizing CC

There are a ton of other "small" differences that add up but we can leave those for later.

I will say that I'm generally not in favor for exactly mirroring. I like differences between the realms and their playstyles.
1) BW already has the damage advantage over sorcs, why would it need even more of a buff.
2) I will agree that Whispering Wind should be more reliable (let the buff go off even when you are parried/blocked), but the benefit of a cd reducer is not equal for both realms. Therefor the amount of cd reduction available doesn't have to be the same either. Understand that it would be a huge buff to slayers if Order had more cd reducers. And if there is one order class that doesn't need a buff, it would be the Slayer.
3) Even with all the nerfs it is still the best tank in the game.
4) Value of morale has been nerfed a lot, this obviously favorered Order.
5) Hate golbins eh? AM definitely needs a buff compared to Shaman, but I wouldn't speak of "equalizing speed boots".
6) As I said, I'm not in favor of mirroring more. The game isn't mirrored and with how some class mechanics are different between the realms even a perfect mirror would be impossible. Order has more raw damage, Destro more CC. Crucially this CC can be outplayed by Order (Use interrupts, ty). And the damage advantage can be outplayed by destro. GTDC was nerfed and with that I 't feel like the balance between damage and CC is pretty fair at the moment.

teiloh wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:56 pm

Xergon wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:59 pm

teiloh wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:44 am

Spoiler:

2 Exalted Defenses proc in first 2:53, and you managed to get off 2 group heals while they were active

META

ORDER HEAL ADVANTAGE!

Not like it doesnt affect ST heals or Hots aswell, oh wait, it does...

You managed to get like 2 ST heals with ED up in almost the entire video. But yes it added approximately 90 points of healing, per person, to your HOTs I guess.

Aka less healing than a Black Orc gets from You Got Nuffin

I watched the point you linked. Why would he be group healing when his group is full health ... He did do one smite too many, but ED already ran out at that point.

Trying to question the footage, just by skipping throgh the vidoe i got a pretty fast impression by seeing some destro names, to give me an idea about who the enemy was in each clip. (players associated with the guilds they represent)

And questioning the motive behind the movie come on now
For how long have the debates actually been going on with how order cant compete, how destro is dominating and bla bla bla.

Well here is the video proof that order can put up a fight and win, does it take more to do so on Order and is it a little bit more narrow in what options you have. Arguebly.
But honestly that has pretty much always been the case on Order for warband play..

The only imbalance on order is that the so called only order guilds which lets be honest have a very pug like casual mentality simply refuse to git gud!

zumos2 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:15 pm KotBS is still the best tank in the game because of all its utility it can get within a single spec. 15% more incoming healing for your group, wounds debuff, 10% more inc crit chance, AoE slow, good 10s cd punts, knockdown. Both Chosen and BG have to make hard choices in their specs leaving out different forms of utililty. Order still has higher damage with Slayer doing more raw damage than Choppa and BW doing more raw damage than Sorc (Sorc's damage is way more spread).

Focused Mending is a tactic that requires using an aura that is frankly dog**** now that it doesn't recover AP. Slice Through is not a true AOE slow, it affects 3 additional random targets within 15 for a high uptime snare - but since the AOE cap was lifted it's nothing compared to the BG's AOE snare, which is the best as a frontal 40 AOE that can be aimed with a flick of the mouse.

Arcing Swing requires a 2 hander, and 10% inc crit requires yet another tactic.

So that's all four of your tactics already. (FM, Overpowering Swing, Slice Through, Repel Darkness)

A 2H BG gets chance to crit/AOE snare for free as abilities rather than tactics - Crimson Death has 100% uptime and good damage, their frontal snare can catch 24 people. Then the Wounds debuff is a tactic, spammable on any aoe, and it comes with Haste. I don't know if it still stacks with Blast Wave but I'm guessing it doesn't.

They get their knockback, Exile, core - and its the game's longest KB, by a comical level (by that I mean I laugh my ass off every time it's used on me). It has a Knockdown as well.

Furious Howl drops Block/Parry 10% and has 150% uptime, while doing some damage. This is generally better than the Knight's x13, which has 33% uptime - but it drops Dodge/Disrupt too, I guess.

It seems more like the BG has a lot of excellent choices to make while the KOTBS is pigeonholed.

I will say that I'm generally not in favor for exactly mirroring. I like differences between the realms and their playstyles.
1) BW already has the damage advantage over sorcs, why would it need even more of a buff.
2) I will agree that Whispering Wind should be more reliable (let the buff go off even when you are parried/blocked), but the benefit of a cd reducer is not equal for both realms. Therefor the amount of cd reduction available doesn't have to be the same either. Understand that it would be a huge buff to slayers if Order had more cd reducers. And if there is one order class that doesn't need a buff, it would be the Slayer.
3) Even with all the nerfs it is still the best tank in the game.
4) Value of morale has been nerfed a lot, this obviously favorered Order.
5) Hate golbins eh? AM definitely needs a buff compared to Shaman, but I wouldn't speak of "equalizing speed boots".
6) As I said, I'm not in favor of mirroring more. The game isn't mirrored and with how some class mechanics are different between the realms even a perfect mirror would be impossible. Order has more raw damage, Destro more CC. Crucially this CC can be outplayed by Order (Use interrupts, ty). And the damage advantage can be outplayed by destro. GTDC was nerfed and with that I 't feel like the balance between damage and CC is pretty fair at the moment.

1) I'm just not seeing how this works mathematically. What I saw from the video shown was lots of 1-2 ticks of FBB, Flame Breath, and Funnel Power. Simply put, Ice Spikes, IW, and Shadow Knives just hit harder AOE, debuffs notwithstanding. If it's Flashfire, that's another thing (not great DPS but excellent burst), and Burning Head has its "mirror" on Squig Herders.
2) Because of ID? Yes, it helps some classes spam things easily but ID is not that great. Slayers spamming ID will not make any headway against DOKs spamming group cleanse.
3) I'm skeptical of this claim. IMO, it's just a meme, and the meme got the class gutted.
4) Only morale dumps. Destro has tons of incredible defensive and utility morales.
5) It's not just Shamans. Both Chosen and BG have speed on Disrupt, WE has speed on a rarely used tactic (for good reason), SH has a core movespeed buff that *doesn't break*, Choppa has movespeed on GTDC ... it never ends. Outside of direct mirrors, the tally came down to like 10 vs 3 last time I checked.
6) I tend to agree, but I think it's easy to say you're not in favor of mirroring more when so many Order abilities have been mirrored, one-way, to Destro. Ancestor's Echo, Regenerative Shielding, Desperation, Pounce, Ranged Finishers, SM CD reducers, a buff to Indigestion (formerly Bad Gas) that made it superior to Shatter Limbs. The list goes on. Would you adhere to this design principle by de-mirroring from Destro?

teiloh wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:29 pm
Focused Mending is a tactic that requires using an aura that is frankly dog**** now that it doesn't recover AP. Slice Through is not a true AOE slow, it affects 3 additional random targets within 15 for a high uptime snare - but since the AOE cap was lifted it's nothing compared to the BG's AOE snare, which is the best as a frontal 40 AOE that can be aimed with a flick of the mouse.

Ye the base aura sucks, but +15% incoming healing is still an insanely good aura KotBS slow isn't so bad in city because you can quite safely apply it to the right targets. BG slow is nice (way better in RvR), but only has 50% uptime.

teiloh wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:29 pm
Arcing Swing requires a 2 hander, and 10% inc crit requires yet another tactic.

So that's all four of your tactics already. (FM, Overpowering Swing, Slice Through, Repel Darkness)

A 2H BG gets chance to crit/AOE snare for free as abilities rather than tactics - Crimson Death has 100% uptime and good damage, their frontal snare can catch 24 people. Then the Wounds debuff is a tactic, spammable on any aoe, and it comes with Haste. I don't know if it still stacks with Blast Wave but I'm guessing it doesn't.

They get their knockback, Exile, core - and its the game's longest KB, by a comical level (by that I mean I laugh my ass off every time it's used on me). It has a Knockdown as well.

Furious Howl drops Block/Parry 10% and has 150% uptime, while doing some damage. This is generally better than the Knight's x13, which has 33% uptime - but it drops Dodge/Disrupt too, I guess.

It seems more like the BG has a lot of excellent choices to make while the KOTBS is pigeonholed.

Arcing Swing does require a 2H, but so does the BG spec you are referring to. And yes those are the four tactics, but there isn't much else to take. And that is also true for BG (after parry, wounds debuff and crit chance tactics). You can get some tactics that help with hate or some self defense, but nothing super good. The fact that BG good knockback is core therefor means not much more than that the KotBS is missing the next best tactic (rugged or something), which is super minor. Both classes can have access to knockdown in the spec. Furious Howl is definitely nice and in my KotBS spec there is not even room for Staggering Impact (which could use a buff for sure).

teiloh wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:29 pm

1) I'm just not seeing how this works mathematically. What I saw from the video shown was lots of 1-2 ticks of FBB, Flame Breath, and Funnel Power. Simply put, Ice Spikes, IW, and Shadow Knives just hit harder AOE, debuffs notwithstanding. If it's Flashfire, that's another thing (not great DPS but excellent burst), and Burning Head has its "mirror" on Squig Herders.
2) Because of ID? Yes, it helps some classes spam things easily but ID is not that great. Slayers spamming ID will not make any headway against DOKs spamming group cleanse.
3) I'm skeptical of this claim. IMO, it's just a meme, and the meme got the class gutted.
4) Only morale dumps. Destro has tons of incredible defensive and utility morales.
5) It's not just Shamans. Both Chosen and BG have speed on Disrupt, WE has speed on a rarely used tactic (for good reason), SH has a core movespeed buff that *doesn't break*, Choppa has movespeed on GTDC ... it never ends. Outside of direct mirrors, the tally came down to like 10 vs 3 last time I checked.
6) I tend to agree, but I think it's easy to say you're not in favor of mirroring more when so many Order abilities have been mirrored, one-way, to Destro. Ancestor's Echo, Regenerative Shielding, Desperation, Pounce, Ranged Finishers, SM CD reducers, a buff to Indigestion (formerly Bad Gas) that made it superior to Shatter Limbs. The list goes on. Would you adhere to this design principle by de-mirroring from Destro?

1) Shadow Knives is horrible, only worth using first tick ever. FBB is way way better. Flame Breath does way more damage than Ice Spikes (note that ice spikes is in DoT tree, which doesn't help either), but Ice Spikes has a bit more range. Surging Pain and Disastrous Cascade are mirrors to Scorched Earth and Annihilate, but with funnel power, BW does more. Because of funnel power, RoF also does more than Pit of Shades. The one great AoE skill sorc has is IW, but mostly because of its huge range. BW with Flashfire can instant cast Fiery Blasts which deals insane damage. And you are wrong in saying that it is only good burst. It only has a cd of 3 seconds and can be cast all the time. Combustion managed is also way easier on BW than on Sorc.
2) Well that is why you open with Onslaught. And you can't just spam cleanse without your group dying to all other forms of damage. AoE cleanse imo was always overrated (which is true for both sides).
3) It used to give + 20% crit chance offensively (10% on dps outgoing and 10% on enemies incoming), additionaly 10% heal crit on healers + 15% incoming healing for the group + great CC. It really was OP and not just a meme.
4) The most common used non-damage morales are Focused Mind and Distracting Bellow. M2 is very easy to reach even without morale pumps. Obviously destro tanks getting to M4 rather quick is super strong. Could be something to give to SnB SM or something. Or give order another anti morale tool if you want to go the more de-mirror route.
5) IB also has that movement speed tactic. Besides any tank can run the 2H with a speed proc if they want. WE would never us that. I already said gobbos have good speed stuff Which leaves choppa's GTDC, which I agree shouldn't have a speed buff on it.
6) In general I can agree to some forms of de-mirroring. TBF I don't remember those RP tactics being given to the ZL, did that actually happen on RoR? Desperation being given to Shamans was 100% on live. I don't think MSH should have pounce, especially not with a knockdown in its kit. With ranged finishers I guess you mean WE? That was also done on Live and at that point a welcomed buff to WE. I already gave my opinion on cd reducers. Shatter Limbs/Indigestion pretty much the same skill and neither too relevant. Anway again generally I'm not against de-mirroring, but if you remove something you gotta give something back in place.

zumos2 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:41 pm Ye the base aura sucks, but +15% incoming healing is still an insanely good aura KotBS slow isn't so bad in city because you can quite safely apply it to the right targets. BG slow is nice (way better in RvR), but only has 50% uptime.

Keep in mind the Chosen can choose to debuff healing by 25%, or increase cast times by 25%, which lowers WP group heal throughput by 20% and far more for RP/AM. And because it's not a tactic, you can switch these depending on the situation.

Arcing Swing does require a 2H, but so does the BG spec you are referring to. And yes those are the four tactics, but there isn't much else to take. And that is also true for BG (after parry, wounds debuff and crit chance tactics). You can get some tactics that help with hate or some self defense, but nothing super good. The fact that BG good knockback is core therefor means not much more than that the KotBS is missing the next best tactic (rugged or something), which is super minor. Both classes can have access to knockdown in the spec. Furious Howl is definitely nice and in my KotBS spec there is not even room for Staggering Impact (which could use a buff for sure).

Yes. This is a BG rough equivalent to the spec you've mentioned. A BG with the spec I'm talking about can take a +45% toughness buff, which makes them one of the hardiest classes out there. They can use a speed boost on Disrupt, which in a zerg situation will have a very high uptime and also feed them AP. It also has very respectable AOE dps to contribute to a ball. And at very high rank with Sov you can ignore Detaunts.

1) Shadow Knives is horrible, only worth using first tick ever. FBB is way way better. Flame Breath does way more damage than Ice Spikes (note that ice spikes is in DoT tree, which doesn't help either), but Ice Spikes has a bit more range. Surging Pain and Disastrous Cascade are mirrors to Scorched Earth and Annihilate, but with funnel power, BW does more. Because of funnel power, RoF also does more than Pit of Shades. The one great AoE skill sorc has is IW, but mostly because of its huge range. BW with Flashfire can instant cast Fiery Blasts which deals insane damage. And you are wrong in saying that it is only good burst. It only has a cd of 3 seconds and can be cast all the time. Combustion managed is also way easier on BW than on Sorc.
2) Well that is why you open with Onslaught. And you can't just spam cleanse without your group dying to all other forms of damage. AoE cleanse imo was always overrated (which is true for both sides).
3) It used to give + 20% crit chance offensively (10% on dps outgoing and 10% on enemies incoming), additionaly 10% heal crit on healers + 15% incoming healing for the group + great CC. It really was OP and not just a meme.
4) The most common used non-damage morales are Focused Mind and Distracting Bellow. M2 is very easy to reach even without morale pumps. Obviously destro tanks getting to M4 rather quick is super strong. Could be something to give to SnB SM or something. Or give order another anti morale tool if you want to go the more de-mirror route.
5) IB also has that movement speed tactic. Besides any tank can run the 2H with a speed proc if they want. WE would never us that. I already said gobbos have good speed stuff Which leaves choppa's GTDC, which I agree shouldn't have a speed buff on it.
6) In general I can agree to some forms of de-mirroring. TBF I don't remember those RP tactics being given to the ZL, did that actually happen on RoR? Desperation being given to Shamans was 100% on live. I don't think MSH should have pounce, especially not with a knockdown in its kit. With ranged finishers I guess you mean WE? That was also done on Live and at that point a welcomed buff to WE. I already gave my opinion on cd reducers. Shatter Limbs/Indigestion pretty much the same skill and neither too relevant. Anway again generally I'm not against de-mirroring, but if you remove something you gotta give something back in place.

1) SK has a radius of 20, vs. FBB's 10. It does higher base damage on the AOE component, even if the ticks are more spaced out. Using 2 ticks will get you slightly more damage than a Shattered Shadows. Side note, it's also debuffed by BOs and Zealots and iirc because of the nature of its ticks, it follows a target for longer. Flashfire was also nerfed to a 6s ICD, which is a massive reduction in effectiveness. From what I've seen, FP is 7% of an AOE BW's total damage. Likewise, Ice Spikes is in the DoT line, but of course going FBB means a huge chunk of a BW's points are going to single target, which will hurt their AOE damage. Flame Breath also does not hit harder than Ice Spikes per tick - but it does do one tick on the initial cast, which procs. Other than that, Ice Spikes has 1 more tick and has much longer range.
2) If you open with Onslaught, that's an ICD cost that goes against the idea that spamming ID should be some kind of inhibition against giving Order back its CD reducer advantage. Spamming ID is just not optimal. The rotations Order can get out of CD reducers are not anything special over what Destro can - Destro may have to cycle in more individual abilities, but taken as a whole those rotations are just as effective if not more.
3) That's still two tactics split between two trees. Destro also has chance to be crit except it's on a different class, and it's better - 40 frontal cone vs 25, no tactic required. There was no reason to nerf DT esp now that Chosen has group -chance to be crit. I don't think gating +10% chance to be crit and +10% group chance is anything out of the ordinary. They're good tactics, and that's it. Having both together is nothing special. You could just move +chance to be crit onto another class like say, SM, and they would be no better or worse off for it. No reason to nerf warrants nerfing the hell out of both of them. Focused Mending is easily canceled out by either one of two Chosen auras, depending on situation.
4) IMO having Morales first, and being able to ensure that everyone has them at the same time is a big boon.
5) The 2h speed proc is less frequent, has iCD, and breaks on use and of course it replaces another proc that you could use. The speed tactic is probably 5-10x stronger if I were valuing it. The IB gets great mileage out of it, but the Chosen, who positions for auras, and the BG that needs to chase down healers get a bit more mileage out of it.
6) Yes, a lot of those were done on Live and imo had little justification behind it. If you ask me, WE should not have range finishers but the ICD on Kisses should probably be removed, etc.

teiloh wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:12 am or increase cast times by 25%, which lowers WP group heal throughput by 20%

2021 and WPs still abusing broken NB.

Honestly if this is the best we can come up with... Couldn't be more relevant

It's a waste of time for order to make a city. That's all.