Return of Reckoning

Zxul wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2024 7:09 am

Farrul wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2024 6:39 am and the rest of the time it is infested with dps shamans griefing the playerbase, all kinds of dps ranged carrers making everyone not ranged or super organized miserable.

Do you need a safe space?

Farrul wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2024 6:39 am A nerf to WS should imho follow with some long overdue adequate nerfs to magical ranged carrers, i.e no disrupt strikethrough from intelligence , disrupt from renown is useless because of this unless stacked upon shield wall or Wall of darting steel. Resistance value on gear increased or the stat itself re-scaled to be more effective at mitigating magical attacks.

It amuses me to no end how much you are complaining about strikethrough from intel making disrupt from renown useless (for a few classes actually, because unlike your claim it is very useful for any healer or tank, or just anyone effected by htl), while I haven't seen you once complain about str strikethrough making parry from renown useless for every caster. Or how every caster has realistically close to 0% mitigation vs a competent physical mdps. Bias much?

I know you want keep roaming on your Magus without players having any resistances to it, hence the irony of your ''bias comment''.

Having said, it amuses me how you're using ''group dynamic'' arguments to justify your comments here whenever it suits you, knowing fully well that HTL is not relevant for you unless your up against Gilgam .

And in case HTL is relevant for other players(not in your case, Mr solo roamer ) one mechanic can not justifiy players having near 0-10% avoidances all the other times in the game. This speaks volumes how flawed the balance is. (Solution nerf htl, buff avoidances/mitigation vs magic generally)

Although you're being deciving from previous threads, i'll still answer you this one time.

while I haven't seen you once complain about str strikethrough making parry from renown useless for every caster. Or how every caster has realistically close to 0% mitigation vs a competent physical mdps

Casters are ranged classes, you have an at least 100 range advantage and if you're ever caught in melee, you have detaunts for a 50% mitigation whilst preparing to kite, as a Magus, tons of cc escape and you can stack toughness/wounds since you do not unlike the Order mirror Engineer, need to stack WS for high killing dps abilities.

Furthermore have a super OP wounds buff in demon tree on top of your toughness, why would you even need to consider parry strikethrough from str since you don't need parry at all to survive( unlike melee classes or melee hybrid classes do, they really need it) considering you build other defensive stats through your caster itemization.

Lisutaris " > If nothing else gets changed/added, it will be even more difficult to kill stuff, especially if going full defense mode is the new meta build which I hope will not happen. "

This is what will happen when we have morale dmg cap and we dont have 50% aoe HD which are needed for 9 cap to work. And if the changes happen... I already hate regen and defense oriented things. Man its annoying becayuse " Broken Synergy" is the answer. Meaning in Aor 1500armour and 10- less armour pene tactic of ze/rp stacked with potion or skill. And if you had 800 Armour proc that stacked as well.

So its close to 3k extra armour. But also 800 armour proc stacked with 900 armour proc, but only once and if its not the same amount 800. I remember on my Wp having fort Cloak with 700 armour proc, because it stacked with the 800 armour proc that was more around. 1500+660 armour potion is 2100 armour Extra, but that 5-10% on being hit lasts for 6s so its not like its up 100% of the time.

We need Similar Stacking back, Broken Synergy. Sh/Sw should get Boost VI procs on wpns + 7pc sovereign bonus on all offensive sets except tanks 10% crit and 20% crit dmg. Well Boost VI stacked with it making it 19% Crit and 38% Crit dmg. This is how it should really be, I mean who are we kidding, 300 dmg procs for healers in their wpns? Procs are so bad except in vanq/Opp + Triumph/Vict. Conq/Domi has actually good procs as well but not enough stats.

Anyway it would be nice to have Taunt proc in T4 epic quest wpns again as a tank? AM is the only class that gets to enjoy Broken Synergy with 6pc Vanquisher and The Sight Wpn. 4pc is AP proc. 6pc is 25% off cast times proc. Sight also has Clarity, another Ap proc and 05s faster casting Quickening proc. This means AM is the only Healer that can drop Resto Burst and be fine=)) Also with both procs grp heals are 1.6s! this is the dream and it should be possible for all healers and casters. Procs working together beatifully.

I post Proc list i have, i know there is missing ones
Keep in mind that these buffs do not stack with abilities, or other buffs/debuffs coming from
abilities. Some of thems stack with morales and tactics.

The following are the tooltips for the passive abilities at Career Rank 30:

Corrosion - On Hit: 10% chance to lower target's Armor by 900 for 10 seconds.
Erosion - On Hit: 10% chance to lower all of target's Resistances by 150 for 10 seconds.
Clarity - Any Ability: 10% chance to reduce the cost of the next ability used within 10 seconds to 0 Action Points.
Preservation - On Being Hit: 10% chance to increase Wounds by 60 for 20 seconds.
Mending - On Being Hit: 10% chance to recover 52 health.
Vivacious - On Heal: 10% chance to recover 50 AP.
Caretaker - On Hit: 10% chance to heal defensive target for 175 health.
Domination - On Hit: 25% chance to steal 60 Toughness from your target for 10 seconds.
Aggravation - On Hit: 10% chance to Taunt target.
Bracing - On Being Hit: 10% chance to increase Armor by 528 for 10 seconds.
Overwhelming - On Hit: 25% chance to reduce target's Weapon Skill by 60 while increasing your Strength by 60 for 10 seconds.
Pilfer - On Being Hit: 10% chance to steal 87 health from your attacker.
Elusive - On Being Hit: 10% chance to increase movement speed by 20% for 10 seconds.
Quickening - On Being Hit: 10% chance to reduce build times by half a second for 10 seconds.
Barrier - On Being Hit: 10% chance to form a protective barrier that will absorb up to 116 damage over 5 seconds.
Marked - On Hit: 25% chance to reduce target's Initiative by 60 while increasing your Ballistic Skill by 60 for 10 seconds.
Reactionary - On Defense: 25% chance to increase Parry, Evade, and Disrupt by 10% for 10 seconds.
Guile - On Hit: 10% chance to lower incoming healing on target by 25% for 10 seconds.

Creeping - On Being Hit: 10% chance to reduce attackers movement speed by 40% for 5 seconds.

Bewildering - On hit: 5% chance to increase cast times by 05s for 6 seconds,Works on melee and Ranged attacks.

Dissolve VII - On Hit: 10% chance to lower target's armor by 700 for 6 seconds.

Depleting - On Hit: 10% chance to remove 50 AP from your target.

Barricade:VII - On any dmg taken 5% Chance to increase armor by 700 for 6 seconds(Stacking with armour potion or skill)

Boost IV - On hit: 10% cincrease your critical hit rate by 6% and critical dmg by 9%

Boost V - On hit: 10% chance to increase your critical hit rate by 9% and critical dmg by 12%

Boost VI - On hit: 10% chance to increase your critical hit rate by 9% and critical dmg by 18%

Boost VII - On hit: 10% chance to increase your critical hit rate by 10% and critical dmg by 20%

Fenris78 wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2024 3:49 pm

normanis wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2024 12:55 pm neeed try out new changes on live for 2 weeks, darkwald server always has 10players. seems noone has intrested join test server for changes. bet better come here make maths on papper without proper testing.

With all due respect to all people involved in these decisions, I think it's easy to figure out how forcing every physical dps and tank to spec into 3 specs is probably not a good idea.

Making Initiative the "best" stat will only result to moving the "issue" (because someone thought there was an issue somehow with initiative usefulness, after getting this stat with better scaling than before) to another stat, not fixing it.

Everyone here can tell that setting the same scaling to a stat most classes cant get over 250 or 300, than a stat most physical damaging classes can push into 600 or even 900, is not especially a good idea.

By doing this, you are concretely destroying every melee build, with very few exception probably like WH/WE wich got about same value on those two stats, and wich also got armorPen and Parry tactics.
But every other melee class, even tanks for that matters, wich all rely on weapon skill to reach decent ArPen levels, and for wich Parry is the only real defense they got (poor slayers and choppas), moving this bonus to a such secondary stat, without even modifying the silly Strikethrough values and various debuffs, will result in the same end than current Dodge and Disrupt ; complete uselesness.

I think there is some fundamental questions wich need to be put on the table, then tweak values around this starting point, but not completely modifying the combat system without any reflexion about how things are going toghether in the big gameplay scheme.

Fundamental question you can ask first is :
How much value, on average, is desired for avoidances, for the game to be remotely fun and bringing people to make building choices for their toons ?

Will that value be 20, 25, 30% for effective parry against most opponents ? More ?
How much average effective Dodge and Disrupt Value ?
How much to feel protected enough by avoidances, and how much investment is needed to push them more, or reduce them to dangerous levels ?
What will be the pros and cons doing that ?

Those are simple questions that need to be first and foremost, asked and put on the table.

Whitout answering these questions first, nothing good can result from the current maelstrom of strange ideas we are seeing here as "balancing".

problem is wh and witch dont have aoe damage like ather have so they are not welcome in wb, u will replaced as soon there will be some slayer/choppa in horizont (and tiny iniative buff is buff for those clases) mdps anyway must/should have guard in rvr/sc and tanks already have boosted defences. either all clases have st/aoe spec wich are welcome in 6/12/24 gameplay or nothing will changes.
in my opinion why ppl so furiosly decline new pts patch is they bought wrong rings , spended shitons of gold. event is over and now ppl releaze they are fakedup. and they try prove that changes are bad , even noone tried tham for week.
p.s now all mdps sw/sguig stack weaponskill, becaus its get boosted. revert back proc from weapons to dots and direct damage. and ppl will swallow weaponskill change. +10% parry will not save u from mara pull

I didnt even considered Event Rings in my analysis about new WS change, juste realized the simple fact that now more than before, it's totally worthless to invest into any kind of defense, unless you are a tank (with defense increasing capabilities), since everyone is coming with a 6-10% base strikethrough, and abilities like Staggering Impact and Furious howl (amongst many other or tactics) are stacking eachother, effectively reducing every defense to zero without any kind of real investment.

I mean, why even get your parry to 50% (when able ofc), when you face :
-6 to -10% from Strenght
-10% with 2H weaponry
-7-8% from gear
-6% from super easy to get talisman
-10% from skills and tactics (Staggering, Furious Howl, Pierce defense, Elf tactics, other parry or WS debuffs)
-Unblockable attacks

Add to that it's easy due to lag and approximative positioning to be consistently hit by behind, not to mention the chaos of wb vs wb fights...

Same for Dodge and disrupt scores, wich are even lower saving some added disrupt for healers wich allow them to somehow resist a bit more (with limited extend) from caster damage.


In current state of the game you can literaly dump every bonus to parry, dodge and disrupt and spec full tanky or fll glasscannon, because actually in RoR the chances to hit are about 95% no matter what.

Why is that ?
Because debuffs to avoidances had been constantly added to the game (Legendary talismans, Sovereign/warlord stuff, 2H weaponry, now it's Twilitght ring talismans, and recently added strikethrough to offensive stats).

All of this without considering to add other bonuses to counterbalance, or how things are stacking together.

With old system (formula between attacker and defender stats), avoidances were already low, unless you buffed them with tanks +parry% buffs, HtL and such.
Looking on my old combat logs on various characters, parry chances were around 15%, almost same for disrupt/dodge.
Wich was already pretty low, but on some fights were about right considering investment into full Def Defender and Reflexes (all of them almost 20% on average).

We found avoidances to be a bit low at the time but in the end, I found they were still relevant to scrap some damage off.
Then small added bonuses from support classes were also very useful and made real difference.


With current system, and that will be even more prominent if PTS weaponskill rework is pushed live, Dodge and Disrupt are non-existent unless you run with a buffbot tank constantly, and even then you get quickly meatgrinded into the big fights regularly happening everywhere.

From this point of view, why even spec into avoidance at all if they dont, by themselves, make any difference in fights ?

If every player need to get his Ironbreaker (or similar) buddy to buff them 20% parry, to reach remotely useful amounts of defense in melee, whats the point even playing other class than tank since you cant survive any engagement by being not in an optimized group ?


The meta has shifted from globally defensive, where stats like anticrit, toughness and armor were prioritized or at least seriously taken into consideration, to now a full offensive era, where every defenses are either too low (on average) or too strong (for some classes, namely tanks with shields, with Hold the Line and other +50% Block channels).

I am sure there can be a satistying middle ground for everyone, lets say, on average, an effective 20 to 25% avoidances would be perfect.
A game where everything is constantly hitting everyone can be fun too, but in RoR you first need to balance AoE and healing/mitigation capabilities.

If you want to stay more or less accurate with current balance of skillsets interacting with eachother, adding Pluses and Minuses to stats, you NEED badly to rebalance the numbers behind every Avoidances and Strikethrough to avoid them being either TOO strong or TOO weak.

Not needing a degree to see current numbers are resulting into a zero-avoidance era, and personaly I'm not very fan of this prospect in any foreseeable future...


What's the solution then ?

- Decide how much effective avoidances are needed for the game to be fun for all players (20, 25%, more, less ?)

- Watch closely how every buffs and debuffs can be stacked, on both side (offensively and defensively)

- Take various builds on various engagement scenarios, taking into account buffs and debuffs used

- Adjust numbers on stats, skills and tactics to reach on most cases the average desired percentage

- Look closely for outliers, and how much getting more strikethrough or more avoidance is impacting efficientness or is easy to pull off, and adjust further : reaching a 90 or 95% hitrate should require more heavy investment ; should core abilities offer so much for the ease of use ? Is a tactic slot a good sacrifice for the bonus it provides, etc ?

Farrul wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2024 7:52 am I know you want keep roaming on your Magus without players having any resistances to it, hence the irony of your ''bias comment''.

Having said, it amuses me how you're using ''group dynamic'' arguments to justify your comments here whenever it suits you, knowing fully well that HTL is not relevant for you unless your up against Gilgam .

I also have melee toons I roam on, including a chosen I for pretty long roamed on in dps spec with snb, exactly to use htl on the run to deal with kiters. So htl is relevant for me quote a bit more than just against Gilgam

Farrul wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2024 7:52 am And in case HTL is relevant for other players(not in your case, Mr solo roamer ) one mechanic can not justifiy players having near 0-10% avoidances all the other times in the game. This speaks volumes how flawed the balance is. (Solution nerf htl, buff avoidances/mitigation vs magic generally)

Its really amusing how you keep ignoring healers/ tanks, which have quite a bit more than 0-10%, and keep claiming that the game is made only out of glass cannon mdps. While asking to nerf everyone otw (what it is by now, casters, 2/3 of dps healers, tanks, did I forgot anyone?)

Farrul wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2024 7:52 am Although you're being deciving from previous threads, i'll still answer you this one time.

while I haven't seen you once complain about str strikethrough making parry from renown useless for every caster. Or how every caster has realistically close to 0% mitigation vs a competent physical mdps

Casters are ranged classes, you have an at least 100 range advantage and if you're ever caught in melee, you have detaunts for a 50% mitigation whilst preparing to kite, as a Magus, tons of cc escape and you can stack toughness/wounds since you do not unlike the Order mirror Engineer, need to stack WS for high killing dps abilities.

Furthermore have a super OP wounds buff in demon tree on top of your toughness, why would you even need to consider parry strikethrough from str since you don't need parry at all to survive( unlike melee classes or melee hybrid classes do, they really need it) considering you build other defensive stats through your caster itemization.

With the "super OP wounds buff" I guess we are getting to your next in line nerf cry?

Now, since you clearly have no idea about magus class, lets go over magus build and abilities.

For a start, that 100 ft range advantage requires the fight starting 100 ft away, with caster clearly seeing the mdps (how often does that happens vs say a wh?), and with no obstacles breaking los otw. Remind me, how often does that happens say in Praag?

Now as for magus "tons of cc escape". Here is what magus got, root, snares, punt, stagger, disarm, kd. Seems a lot, right? Here is the actual picture- root and punt are on the same immunity, not to mention that root is pretty much a melee (25 ft) range. And punt is a pretty short distance one. Stagger, disarm, and kd are also on the same immunity, not to mention that kd requires first standing still to summon the pet, and then only works in melee range around the pet (destroying it in the process). Magus snares are actually a melee 5 ft range one- gl kiting with that, and a m1 one.

Even funnier, mdps/tanks can instantly remove the root/snares (fun abilities like Break Loose or Juggernaut), so you can remove half of that cc.

I do play melee toons, and the only time I had a problem catching engies (same cc, except m1 snare, but with extra tactic snare instead) is when the engi was next to a keep pastern. So if you have a problem to catch a kiting magus, its not the magus cc tools, its LtP problem on your part.

Now lets go over stack toughness/ wound. Lets make a fun exercise, go over magus armor sets and tell me which one have toughness mods. As you just had found out, highest magus armor with toughness set bonus is invader, however it has pretty much no toughness on parts. Highest one with actual decent toughness mods + toughness set bonus is dominator- barely a t4 entry set. Remind me again, how are you planning to stack that toughness? And about stacking wounds on non healer, without mitigation since you can't both get it and wounds, gl lol.

In other words, basically all of your posts are repeated whining about casters, and requests to nerf everyone except you, while having no idea how other classes- or even mdps- actually work, and how can they counter the other classes.