Return of Reckoning

Toshutkidup wrote: ↑Sun Sep 01, 2024 7:15 am I haven't changed my build at all still full WS talis. Now I did try to figure out how much parry I actually have and for me.getstats don't work. Did that command get removed the 7 months or so I was gone? I still have no plans to change anything about my build but addon to track stats apparently is all bugged and wrong.

Use ]stats instead of .stats

@what63

Can you please name the abilites with such low range and name all the other abilities that have higher range. Can you imagine that the TTK for mDPS just got lowered by statchange. Can you imagine that people will drop their mDPS because of that change. Can you imagine that many other abilitys got affected by the statchange? Can you imagine that the statchange was shortsighted and was justified by 1v1 examples? Can you imagine that mDPS classes that went ST because of AoE nerf dont have the range.
Your argument that "RANGE"classes have the same ammount of range as "MEELE"classes is just wrong. Sure you can build "RANGE"classes to act LIKE "MEELE"classes but thats not the point. The point is that you cant give range and meele classes the same stats. It just wont work.

skorvag wrote: ↑Sun Sep 01, 2024 11:01 am @what63

Can you please name the abilites with such low range and name all the other abilities that have higher range. Can you imagine that the TTK for mDPS just got lowered by statchange. Can you imagine that people will drop their mDPS because of that change. Can you imagine that many other abilitys got affected by the statchange? Can you imagine that the statchange was shortsighted and was justified by 1v1 examples? Can you imagine that mDPS classes that went ST because of AoE nerf dont have the range.
Your argument that "RANGE"classes have the same ammount of range as "MEELE"classes is just wrong. Sure you can build "RANGE"classes to act LIKE "MEELE"classes but thats not the point. The point is that you cant give range and meele classes the same stats. It just wont work.

In bomb spec BW or Engi play in melee range. If you stand 0 or 25 ft away, it doesn't matter. At the same time they have less armor than melee dd in same area.

skorvag wrote: ↑Sun Sep 01, 2024 11:01 am @what63

Can you please name the abilites with such low range and name all the other abilities that have higher range. Can you imagine that the TTK for mDPS just got lowered by statchange. Can you imagine that people will drop their mDPS because of that change. Can you imagine that many other abilitys got affected by the statchange? Can you imagine that the statchange was shortsighted and was justified by 1v1 examples? Can you imagine that mDPS classes that went ST because of AoE nerf dont have the range.
Your argument that "RANGE"classes have the same ammount of range as "MEELE"classes is just wrong. Sure you can build "RANGE"classes to act LIKE "MEELE"classes but thats not the point. The point is that you cant give range and meele classes the same stats. It just wont work.

Just no, to absolutely everything, your take is entirely predicated on some misguided belief that the patch in january was in ANY way needed on the melee DPS side. Again, the TTK argument applies in a bomb setting only. In a bomb setting every DPS in a warband are in melee range when looking at peak throughput. I will proceed to list all of the abilities shortly. But to preface, I will repeat, the change in TTK is only valid relative to the period of time post-january where it was increased to begin with..... The solution, once again, is to go back to when stats made sense, so revert the change from 25th of january. You are arguing as if melee DPS always had this parry, meanwhile they simply didn't. Melee DPS in a bomb setting had a significant buff in january, ranged AoE DPS in said bomb didn't. And melee were already dominant in the setting. There is only a single RDPS that does not have any AoE abilities at 25ft which lead to higher throughput when utilized (Or would utilize, if they were welcome to begin with, which many of them simply aren't because of their drawbacks).

So here goes a list of all 25ft(-30ft?) AoE abilities (and most used tactics that apply) on ranged DPS, you know, the abilities they actually use in warband play that allow them to do any kind of AoE damage resembling that of melee DPS, while wearing cloth armor and not having mobility tools or parry.

Annihilate, Scorched Earth, Backdraft, Explosive Force, Lightning Rod, Static Discharge, Rune of Might, Grimnir's Fury, various pet abilities on engi/magus, Agonizing Torrent, Warpfire, Instability, self-desruct, Rite of Agony, Disastrous Cascade, Surging Pain and Piercing Shadows.

Most of the above are the main spammable direct damage AoEs along with the AoE pbaoe channels of the rdps in the game. In addition, some have their spammables as 40ft cones, along with 40ft cone DoTs, will list them aswell. Melee DPS have equivalents of these aswell, so there is parity, only Magus/Engi get to have any kind of noticeably larger range on their actual AoE spammable aside from SW, and these fall into this category. Sorcs closest equivalents in this section are actually 65ft, but either have cooldowns or in the case of their AoE DoT, does not have initial tick unlike BW. The same applies for SW, they also get to have some longer range on select abilities.

Flamebreath, Friction Burn, Blunderbuss Blast, Rune of Cleaving, Demonic Lash, Infernal Pain, Demon Spittle and Barrage.


There are tools that fall outside of these ranges as far as AoE goes, but these are not very relevant outside of someone solo leeching at keeps and the likes. They often simply do not stack with multiple casts in the same area and have other limiting factors along with far lower throughput than their pbaoe/cone counterparts. End of they day, ranged DPS, as noted, operate as melee DPS in a warband, as per the abilities listed as requested. And this isn't something that can be ignored when stating that melee DPS specifically somehow need more survivability in larger scale.

Can you imagine Armor talismans were nerfed years ago which affected Healers the most but there are plenty players still healing?
Can you imagine that they adapted and kept playing the class?
Now imagine that ALL this whining is due to something that was implemented wrongly not long ago and Devs are trying to fix it.

Im seeing the meleeDPS that you speak of doing very well especially choppas if they have a good group such as tanks and heals. I see choppas get kills in sc's and i feel like we win about half of them. Even beating premades a few times the other day. However i see choppas also fail. I believe a big reason is because there are some horrible healers. Who are seen doing only group heals, which fluffs their numbers in the end. Meanwhile choppas die left, right, and center during these group heals because that heals a 2 sec cast time. Choppas also need DIRECT heals and hots because these heals are immediate cast. And the choppa has at least a chance to survive with immediate cast. Choppas need good healers and not somebody who just wants to sit there and press one button. I see this problem all the time in sc's.

what63 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 8:47 am
[...]
I'll say this again; The solution is to revert to Mythic formula. It solves every issue.

You mean the formula befor the patch or the original formula? Just askint to understand it.

As said above, I think itemization also needs to be changed with the WS/INI change but it didnt, which isnt good (at least im my opinion)

Loken0891 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 10, 2024 9:20 am

what63 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 8:47 am
[...]
I'll say this again; The solution is to revert to Mythic formula. It solves every issue.

You mean the formula befor the patch or the original formula? Just askint to understand it.

As said above, I think itemization also needs to be changed with the WS/INI change but it didnt, which isnt good (at least im my opinion)

To the formula we had for years up until january, which is also Mythics formula as per 1.4.8.