Return of Reckoning

live4treasure wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 8:15 am

Farrul wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 6:18 am I think that ship has sailed. Still the only melee without a gap closer which is telling. Don't expect anything.

I don't know whether any ships have sailed or not, nor am I asking for advice in this instance. I am simply providing feedback regarding balance patches, and leave the choices of whether or not to listen to that feedback to the team in charge of making balance changes.

The reason the ship may have sailed already is because this has already been left as feedback, thoroughly in fact( by myself and others). You're welcome to check it out in the Healer patch thread.

Endari wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 8:39 am

live4treasure wrote: ↑Thu May 01, 2025 5:09 pm

I'm simply saying your complaint is off-topic and a derailment of the original post's purpose. It's not my concern whether there is too much AoE or too little of it. My message is that within the current state of the game, DPS WP feels incomplete and is short on aoe pressure to be viable in warbands. If you'd like to discuss whether the game should rely on AoE less or more, please make your own suggestion topic explaining your grievances and lay out some solutions to the problem you're seeing.

I won't reply to any further conversation on your specific topic of discussion for the reasons already stated, I'm afraid.

You ask for more aoe damage but saying no to more aoe damage is off topic? Just another player who only wants to press 2 buttons. PLAY A DIFFERENT CLASS if you want 2 buttons, the WL is calling you! Before the patch the 2h dps wp only needed some type of gap closer to be as good as a class could be in this game, you had to think before you popped wrath, did you want smite spam or do you save it for some real burst when needed? but no the devs just had to ruin it so you could have that 2 button play style and you are still not happy.

It's so frustrating to see what has happened to this game and my favorite spec the 2h dps wp, it was fun, it was challenging, sure you were not perfectly suited for warbands but again the wp has 3 valid specs so if you wanted in just respec or you know just deal with not being the top dps in the wb, while still offering buffs/some heals/rez/cleanse and some valid dps.

I need to stop talking about this as it just pisses me off.. oooo they added a new tactic so I never have to think about proper timing of ability use but I still feel useless FUH!

Think of something that is NOT aoe dps that could make the wrath wp more warband ready. I still think you replace soulfire with something that is anti aoe, maybe it would add a large cooldown to aoe abilities(how much fun would it be to push into that destro melee ball and just wreck their timing)? Remove the aoe interrupt from the WL and give it to the wrath wp as they have too much already Or soulfire now removes stealth and stops the use of instant stealth for a while?(only reason I every really cast that ability was to catch we's) Or something like you already mentioned make one of the prayers(righteousness would be my choice) the opposite of the dok snare covenant where the group gets a a 20% chance for a 20% speed boost on prayer proc, not creative but useful. Maybe something really boring like a standard melee dps aoe damage m2, at least you would have to use proper timing then rather than just spamming and you would have to chose to not run rampaging siphon.

Before healer patch Dps Wp was much better, it only needed Guilty Soul healing def target like in live and Divine Strike using Ap maybe even Sigmars radiance(grp melee heal) Also when using 2h 35% to snare with judgement for 4-5s. Add judgement proccing Guilty Soul if Crit. Soulfire 05s cast and instant dmg element that can proc the dmg procs.

I think Dps Wp would have been great if above was true, not huge changes but adding things to already existing abilities. I have been liking how Dps Dok plays now, using the new mechanic mostly in start and finish of the match. Sanquinary Extinsion ending dmg should crit though because its only active with the new mechanic that gives 25% + crit dmg so it needing it but not benefiting from it feels counter intuitive.

Current dps wp "easy" fixes would be Divine impact 10/10 block/parry debuff removed, if Crit 25% Increased dmg+Black Orc Right in da jibbles jumplike effect. Also 35ft Range and Using Ap. 8s Cooldown. Also making Guilty Soul like it was before healer patch + adding the heal effect to it as well.

Why so many are against making every dps class warband viable ? What is the downside of it ? If every dps class had a warband viable dps build game would be so much better and we could see a lot of class diversity in warbands instead of muh stack whats op

Every class would be rvr viable with few core changes, like intented 9 ae cap. Morale dmg cap removed. 50% aoe HD tactics back, Original 1.15s Gcd back as well. Those are probably the most important changes.

If the cap was 9 suddenly engineer/magus pulling 4 or 5 people from keep/fort walls becomes very " must have " and if Wl could again pounce to keep walls with pet being on his side + Pouncing in air after KB use becomes very great things to have.

This game, older versions of it already has at some point has most of the things right : D

agemennon675 wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 11:31 am Why so many are against making every dps class warband viable ? What is the downside of it ? If every dps class had a warband viable dps build game would be so much better and we could see a lot of class diversity in warbands instead of muh stack whats op

I think nobody is against it, only how to make a class warband viable.

Some people are a bit irritated that it seems to be the only viable option to slap AoE on a class and call it warband-ready. I personally like the approach from Endari. Give classes some anti-AoE instead of more AoE. And if not, then all Tanks need a steady AoE source with 2H weapons too. Because, why should only Heal-hybrid classes be "warband viable"?

(Please don't get into Tank DMG abilities because of my last sentence. I only wanted to make a point about why people seem to be confused with the AoE approach.)

agemennon675 wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 11:31 am Why so many are against making every dps class warband viable ? What is the downside of it ? If every dps class had a warband viable dps build game would be so much better and we could see a lot of class diversity in warbands instead of muh stack whats op

The main reason for dissatisfaction on the forum, as far as I can see is "recipe for victory": "blob - patroling BOs as a blob + destroing everything - ram - keep - a lot of reward - next".
RvR was selling, unique part of this game(and still), but originally by design it was not "just zerg it and its done". There were other activities in the zone - roam as solo, roam as duo, roam as trio, as 4-5-6-12 men, but now its gone . If you are not part of zerg - u have choice to snicky run with boxes or just leave to other zone and boxes, as main part of your gameplay. Maybe someone likes it, but this is a pvp game and other players would like to participate in pvp more, then be a courier or be part of zerg and spam 2 buttons(this is not an exaggeration) for next 20sec each. Its the only one activity(blob fight in one point) in zone most of time, somewhere maybe a gankers, who is mainly wh/we(it can be group of them), which not have spot in zerg, killing a lowbies(or not lowbies), which also don't have a spot in zerg. PVP blooms and smells.

So it turns out that those who don't like/are tired of zerg were thrown out of rvr or making this strange choice between "boxes", "zerging", "be zerged".
Yes - sometimes mb u will have a fight, which at least can be called "fight", but u can wait it for an hour, mb two, mb three - doesn't look good.

For now, the game is supported by the influx of new players, who in turn are supported by the grind, and some old player base. But you have to be very far from the game not to understand that this is temporary - while people are grinding and for them this is something new. Quite monotonous. Without any good changes will lead to a decline 100% in the long term.

Back to forum discontent - against the background of the above, people come and say "we need more classes, and therefore people, to be in one place. Spend even more time and resources (resources are limited) on this aspect of the game, because it is not enough now." In the conditions of a rather slow pace of change, due to limited resources, this looks like "Wait a minute" to people who do not play in too much mass pvp. Instead of disassembling the blob by zone or even zones - lets do more classes's specs able for zerg, although they were not originally designed for this purpose and most likely they will have to be gutted for this even more than before. Otherwise, there will be an even greater imbalance - to get something, you have to give something, right? WP is not that class who was deprived for a long time to skip this rule.They were not in the position of "outsiders".

In my opinion - this game have system where each class good in its way, their no need to be great in all directions. Each in his own no less important direction. Even if this direction turned out to be blurred for some reason.

In itself, making more routes is not a bad suggestion. But it is just not appropriate right now - I think. Apparently, I am not alone.

Sinisterror wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 12:07 pm Every class would be rvr viable with few core changes, like intented 9 ae cap. Morale dmg cap removed. 50% aoe HD tactics back, Original 1.15s Gcd back as well. Those are probably the most important changes.

If the cap was 9 suddenly engineer/magus pulling 4 or 5 people from keep/fort walls becomes very " must have " and if Wl could again pounce to keep walls with pet being on his side + Pouncing in air after KB use becomes very great things to have.

This game, older versions of it already has at some point has most of the things right : D

There are some good suggestions, but remove the morale drop cap and 50% aoe hds, not very good to be honest. There is not only in aoe to low TTK atm. Healer patch tried to balance this moment with increasing the power of healing, but i cant to say its much better - u will never kill the target without cc on exp and geared healer or massive assist more than 2 dps and 2 tanks on one target, but TTK can be lower than one second(ahahaha) if u have it(massive assist or cc on healer). Exceptions are made for "select classes" ofc.
Small UPD - this work for 2 2 2 model or at least 1 3 2.

Against this background, proposals to make the TTK even smaller seem strange to me. Remowing morale dmg cap will also be a lot of negative paybacks in other parts of the game + i don't understand how it would help to outnumbered side - the zerg will no have morale drop or what? The only way i see it can help - you are sitting behind the wall, building your moral, the zerg side somehow magically does not building their moral - then run into blob in and coordinate drop it. I won't even consider cases where not only the underdog side and other situations can behave this way - it's clear what this can lead to.

Need a pounce as well

Magusar wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 3:07 pm

Sinisterror wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 12:07 pm Every class would be rvr viable with few core changes, like intented 9 ae cap. Morale dmg cap removed. 50% aoe HD tactics back, Original 1.15s Gcd back as well. Those are probably the most important changes.

If the cap was 9 suddenly engineer/magus pulling 4 or 5 people from keep/fort walls becomes very " must have " and if Wl could again pounce to keep walls with pet being on his side + Pouncing in air after KB use becomes very great things to have.

This game, older versions of it already has at some point has most of the things right : D

There are some good suggestions, but remove the morale drop cap and 50% aoe hds, not very good to be honest. There is not only in aoe to low TTK atm. Healer patch tried to balance this moment with increasing the power of healing, but i cant to say its much better - u will never kill the target without cc on exp and geared healer or massive assist more than 2 dps and 2 tanks on one target, but TTK can be lower than one second(ahahaha) if u have it(massive assist or cc on healer). Exceptions are made for "select classes" ofc.
Small UPD - this work for 2 2 2 model or at least 1 3 2.

Against this background, proposals to make the TTK even smaller seem strange to me. Remowing morale dmg cap will also be a lot of negative paybacks in other parts of the game + i don't understand how it would help to outnumbered side - the zerg will no have morale drop or what? The only way i see it can help - you are sitting behind the wall, building your moral, the zerg side somehow magically does not building their moral - then run into blob in and coordinate drop it. I won't even consider cases where not only the underdog side and other situations can behave this way - it's clear what this can lead to.

So that all of what i suggest works requires all of these factors. old 1.15s Gcd. Super Strong abilities brought back like Crippling strikes/Runefang/6-9s aoe staggers, and one of the points with 9 ae cap and 035s faster gameplay=2 more melee skills in 10s makes Single target dmg much more effective and needed, because cap being 9, there is 8tanks in 1 Wb so that means tanks with good positioning soaks up the aoe dmg and dont die because healers are designed to max grp cleanse 6, grp hot 6 or grp heal 6 in 1 Gcd.

Now with 9ae cap you cant wipe warband with morale drops but you can take out 1/3 with morale bomb alone. But think about 9s 65ft aoe stagger in battle of 9v24. You Stagger that , with you have 3xsingle target dps+3x Tanks who btw blorcs did 1100 THC shield hits all the time whilst being Defensive/Real tank. So you can easily kill those 9people in 9s, then you kite and actually survive because you take potentially 2.5x less aoe dmg so tanks/heals arent insanely overwhelmed and then When you have M2-3 you can actually kill that 24people with 9people in RvR. Those old Morale 2-3 even Melees were 65ft, sometimes 80ft. You cant kill 24 with 9 now whilst kiting them with that smaller party at the same time. Or you cant kill that 24 with that 9 because the rvr fights are over even before they begin but heals feel too powerful in small scale. This is why, no ways to kill the blob(aoe hd and Morale drop and Hard CC which are all gone now are the only ways to kill the blob with smaller force.

1 dps can potentially hit 24 instead of 9 it is obvious that Tanks are not built to take that amount of dmg. And healers grp cleanse 6, grp heal 6 and grp hot 6 people in 1 GCD so obv healers arent designed for 24 either. When the cap is 24 there simply is no fluff healing or dmg its all thats needed to steamroll your enemy.

There exists Also weird and unpredictable effects of the Gcd change For heal Wp/Dok who has 1s Grp heal cast time and GCD 1.15s meant you can cast grp heals back to back and not have downtime of 05s in between casts. This is just one of many but ive blabbed on too much already. Morales/Potions were off Gcd as well. So using 2 pots + morale used to be instant now takes 4.5s.

Sinisterror wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 4:57 pm

Magusar wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 3:07 pm

Sinisterror wrote: ↑Fri May 02, 2025 12:07 pm Every class would be rvr viable with few core changes, like intented 9 ae cap. Morale dmg cap removed. 50% aoe HD tactics back, Original 1.15s Gcd back as well. Those are probably the most important changes.

If the cap was 9 suddenly engineer/magus pulling 4 or 5 people from keep/fort walls becomes very " must have " and if Wl could again pounce to keep walls with pet being on his side + Pouncing in air after KB use becomes very great things to have.

This game, older versions of it already has at some point has most of the things right : D

There are some good suggestions, but remove the morale drop cap and 50% aoe hds, not very good to be honest. There is not only in aoe to low TTK atm. Healer patch tried to balance this moment with increasing the power of healing, but i cant to say its much better - u will never kill the target without cc on exp and geared healer or massive assist more than 2 dps and 2 tanks on one target, but TTK can be lower than one second(ahahaha) if u have it(massive assist or cc on healer). Exceptions are made for "select classes" ofc.
Small UPD - this work for 2 2 2 model or at least 1 3 2.

Against this background, proposals to make the TTK even smaller seem strange to me. Remowing morale dmg cap will also be a lot of negative paybacks in other parts of the game + i don't understand how it would help to outnumbered side - the zerg will no have morale drop or what? The only way i see it can help - you are sitting behind the wall, building your moral, the zerg side somehow magically does not building their moral - then run into blob in and coordinate drop it. I won't even consider cases where not only the underdog side and other situations can behave this way - it's clear what this can lead to.

There exists Also weird and unpredictable effects of the Gcd change For heal Wp/Dok who has 1s Grp heal cast time and GCD 1.15s meant you can cast grp heals back to back and not have downtime of 05s in between casts. This is just one of many but ive blabbed on too much already. Morales/Potions were off Gcd as well. So using 2 pots + morale used to be instant now takes 4.5s.

I hate the 1.5 gcd. I read their reasoning for it but it does make the game feel clunky. They don't seem willing to change it back so it would be nice if they considered a review of each class and give us each 1-2 off gcd abilities, and pots off gcd.