Return of Reckoning

grumcajs wrote:text

I still want to know your name on the live servers. And please how can sb that dont even plays this game give feedback in a suggestion & feedback thread.

Now, first of all, this is a suggestion thread to change a class. So we are talking about balance.
Talking about balance we have to assume a balanced situation so we are talking about 6on6.

grumcajs wrote: yea. WL has 1000 base armor debuff compared to IB 800. As I said - depends on how they meant to balance slayers on par with other mdps classes.

The difference is that an IB needs other pathes while the wl can heavily focus on the first one and bring his armordebuff up to 1,8k iirc (cant say for sure).

grumcajs wrote: I doubt we would see very high armor mitigation on soft targets. IB can still debuff solid chunks of armor if specced in vengeance.

Good healers slot armor. 2h ib is also a less effective version of ib. Double the cd on kd, easier to cc, easier to drop if he goes for dmg.

grumcajs wrote: Its not like all your heal debuffs are instantly cleansed. there are other debuffs, dots etc. flying around to mask it. especially when more players are engaged. it might be possible with double doks spamming gcleanse to somehow harrass slayer, though with ID,hd,dot,SL slayers alone can mask it well. and if there are 2 doks , IB can keep them perma heal debuffed unless they use morale to cleanse.

If the doks are not braindead an IB is not able to healdebuff more than one, if he can hd anyone at all.
He would have to run from the train, which nullifies his dmg and creates a potential play for the enemy grp.
Playing double slayer the ib has to assist and can only hd if the grp manages to catch a dok.
If you play with a wl only the slayer debuffs can and will be cleansed. Unless you have a sm.
Playing double slayer makes the dok ae cleanse ridiculously op.
If you have to constantly renew your debuffs when do you have the time to use dmg abilities?
Not even considering parry at all here.

grumcajs wrote: if u use WW+ED+crit u lose kd+immunity, though with WW you allow others to use their CC more frequently.
Casttime, outgoing dmg increase, ED, dmg on crit,WW are all in same balance, not to mention the duration (its 4 sec?) so its possible to keep it up if u r using it all the time or using suden shift. sure its situational and its possible to chose whats needed - more burst to help kill your main dps target, harass healers, keep enemy dps constantly debuffed etc.

I dont need kd on my sm if my co-tank has it.
WW duration is 10s, cd is 20 s.
Casttime increase lasts 5s and has no cd, therefore as long as I am assisting on the target it stays up.
I guess it is hard to understand if you dont play sm yourself.

Nanji wrote: I still want to know your name on the live servers. And please how can sb that dont even plays this game give feedback in a suggestion & feedback thread.

Grumcajs (rr93) eng, Dungirdir ? (rr91 or so) ib, other alts between rr70-80. no impressive list of rr100s, though not even yer rr50freenown

I wasnt in game for 1 month. how many changed? and sorry, I havent realized we can reach r40 on RoR so you can atm spec for WW+ED .... my bad ....

Nanji wrote: Now, first of all, this is a suggestion thread to change a class. So we are talking about balance.
Talking about balance we have to assume a balanced situation so we are talking about 6on6.

what 6v6 exactly? 2-2-2? heavy dps, heavy rdps, mix?,what healers? what classes? what about enemy grp?
on the side note - do u guys even realize there is no 6v6 in this game unless u make some premade fights in the middle of nowhere? hell not even scs are 6v6...

Nanji wrote: The difference is that an IB needs other pathes while the wl can heavily focus on the first one and bring his armordebuff up to 1,8k iirc (cant say for sure).

yer right - WL can dump points in 1st tree, while IBs (2h) run only as high as cave-in / 2h tactic

Nanji wrote: If the doks are not braindead an IB is not able to healdebuff more than one, if he can hd anyone at all.
He would have to run from the train, which nullifies his dmg and creates a potential play for the enemy grp.
Playing double slayer the ib has to assist and can only hd if the grp manages to catch a dok.
If you play with a wl only the slayer debuffs can and will be cleansed. Unless you have a sm.
Playing double slayer makes the dok ae cleanse ridiculously op.
If you have to constantly renew your debuffs when do you have the time to use dmg abilities?
Not even considering parry at all here.

kinda lost here....WL doesnt have hd so only thing that would get cleansed is slayer hd...alright
with WW and slayer cd reduce tactic he can reapply hd but using debuffs is bad...alright

Nanji wrote: I dont need kd on my sm if my co-tank has it.
WW duration is 10s, cd is 20 s.
Casttime increase lasts 5s and has no cd, therefore as long as I am assisting on the target it stays up.
I guess it is hard to understand if you dont play sm yourself.

well...I have posted something like that - you can keep the target under desired debuff if u use it every rotation or use suden shift. also that u do not have kd but with WW u lower the kd and punt cd for the other tank.
I guess its hard to read what I posted...no doubt Im not as good in english as I would like but I thought I can atleast post a sentence that makes sense. my bad...

[quote="grumcajs"
kinda lost here....WL doesnt have hd so only thing that would get cleansed is slayer hd[/quote]

thin the herd in axe man path?

Coryphaus wrote:[quote="grumcajs"
kinda lost here....WL doesnt have hd so only thing that would get cleansed is slayer hd

thin the herd in axe man path?[/quote]

ah...forgot about it. yea with pounce WL can keep 1 dok easily under effect of outgoing heal debuff

grumcajs wrote: cut out for overview purpose

You dont want to balance around 6on6 because there is no such situation ingame? Good luck balancing around 3on1 24on24, 1on1, XonY.
Talking about balance we are also talking about r40, since the devs will balance around t4. (so yes ED and WW)
A grp in 6on6 can be any combination of heal, tank and dps. Some setups will be strong vs others and some will be not.

Concerning your favorite setup double slayer, ib/kobs vs the most popular double dok comp:
both doks will take grp cleanse for sure and should spam it on cd, why?
Because everytime a slayer has to reapply a debuff he is not dealing dmg.
You cant expect that Onslaught and SL will land on all oppenents, so 1 ae debuff does not equal 1 cleanse but less.
Playing slayer as a debuff bot will not make you win the grp fight. Covering debuffs and debuffing does not actually cause pressure.
If you play with a WL instead of one slayer you will get almost all your slayer debuffs removed since doks can not cleanse curses.
Therefore SM is the obvious choice here.

Hope it is not too confusing without quotes.

EF is not supposed to be up 100% of the combat

By whom is not supposed?

By broken KoBTSs , ONLY they can be with 3 auras up 100% of the combat.
And gimps SMs, isn't supposed to have any OP skills and always be at 2-3 place

Portni wrote:

EF is not supposed to be up 100% of the combat

By whom is not supposed?

By those who set it to 5s duration. Probably the people you can thank for WAR.

@Nanji -
I know you have to balance the game from grp vs grp. Its impossible to balance it from wb vs wb or 2v2 or some other kind of situation.
Its just there are tons of combinations and as you said - some setups would be strong vs. certain grps and weak vs. other setup.

I havent posted anywhere its my favorite setup. Just that it was common setup on live. Also I have posted it was maybe cuz rr80+ and the way slayer mechanic worked with doom and warp procs + weapon dps contribution and AA haste.

On the side note - do not think any slayer used onslaught in rotation. usually just as gap closer to protect SL incoming right after. but that is not their only ailment type - SL, heal debuff, ID (now),pulverizing strike / snare, aoe snare, relentness.

Its true that IB+kotbs cannot protect slayer heal debuffs cuz they cannot be cleansed by double dok though that mean 2 aoe snares that cannot be cleansed, "weak" armor debuff, heal debuff (if it lands), not to mention 100% uptime on 20% crit chance debuff (and thats solid cripple to enemy dps output espeically when they rely on high crit chance)

Though in theory that SM thing looks nice, WW, additional dmg (ED+ 0 resists) while being tanky (avoiding WS) + WoDS for omfg moments, m2 for additional mobility. Maybe I havent seen many SMs in action out there except some solo/duo/trio setups...that were just trying to dish out as many dmg as possible with FO up

grumcajs wrote:@Nanji -
I know you have to balance the game from grp vs grp. Its impossible to balance it from wb vs wb or 2v2 or some other kind of situation.
Its just there are tons of combinations and as you said - some setups would be strong vs. certain grps and weak vs. other setup.

At least we agree on that point.

grumcajs wrote: I havent posted anywhere its my favorite setup. Just that it was common setup on live. Also I have posted it was maybe cuz rr80+ and the way slayer mechanic worked with doom and warp procs + weapon dps contribution and AA haste.

You have mentioned it so often I assumed you like it the most.

grumcajs wrote: On the side note - do not think any slayer used onslaught in rotation. usually just as gap closer to protect SL incoming right after. but that is not their only ailment type - SL, heal debuff, ID (now),pulverizing strike / snare, aoe snare, relentness.

Usually a slayer covers SL with onslaught.

grumcajs wrote: Its true that IB+kotbs cannot protect slayer heal debuffs cuz they cannot be cleansed by double dok though that mean 2 aoe snares that cannot be cleansed, "weak" armor debuff, heal debuff (if it lands), not to mention 100% uptime on 20% crit chance debuff (and thats solid cripple to enemy dps output espeically when they rely on high crit chance)

As I stated earlier, double class setups have huge disadvantages.

grumcajs wrote: Though in theory that SM thing looks nice, WW, additional dmg (ED+ 0 resists) while being tanky (avoiding WS) + WoDS for omfg moments, m2 for additional mobility. Maybe I havent seen many SMs in action out there except some solo/duo/trio setups...that were just trying to dish out as many dmg as possible with FO up

In theory? We are rolling sm atm and will be still rolling sm in t3,t4.
FO.... dont get me started on that one so crappy unless you play in pve or fight a magic dmg based enemy grp.