Return of Reckoning

hammerhead wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:23 am

Zxul wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:53 pm

hammerhead wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:15 pm
to have ST damage to the face at the level of a well dressed WE. Is everything okay? Confuses nothing?

As someone who has both chosen and WE. Just to clarify, are you saying that you honestly believe that a chosen can do same dmg as WE?

When non tank hit by 1-1.2k which AA ? Sure.

If by doing 1-1.2k aa your chosen does same dmg as your WE, reroll your WE.

hammerhead wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:20 am

What else do you want me to say? Armor mit is easily imagined and proven, as is Toughness. Again, are you asking for 1v1 balance against something like a Chosen? Order has SM's, they both deal Spirit. Each realm has a tank that beats up high armor targets easily.

In fact, Knight is the only tank that doesn't debuff it's own damage type and it also no longer has access to a self-WS buff.

If you want 1v1 balance, good luck.

Uchoo wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:21 am

hammerhead wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:20 am

What else do you want me to say? Armor mit is easily imagined and proven, as is Toughness. Again, are you asking for 1v1 balance against something like a Chosen? Order has SM's, they both deal Spirit. Each realm has a tank that beats up high armor targets easily.

In fact, Knight is the only tank that doesn't debuff it's own damage type and it also no longer has access to a self-WS buff.

If you want 1v1 balance, good luck.

He might be in luck, because I cant fathom why else MS was removed from the game. Was MS knights tipping the balance for order in cities? How about any organized PvP like 6v6 or ranked scs?

Uchoo wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:56 pm

detrap wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:49 am

Other tanks have crit tactics for their own benefit, knights have similar tactics for the entire realm/warband/party to use and abuse.

I feel like the more knights cry foul play over their dps abilities without trying to understand the class, the more likely the gap will be brought closer by nerfing the other tanks damage capabilities. Mighty Soul wasn't even originally applied to any abilities outside the Path of Glory tree.

BG's have Crimson Death. It makes targets 10% more likely to be crit. It hits hard. The effect is applied even if the ability is defended.

BG's have a tactic with a Wounds debuff bigger than Knight's Arcing Swing that applies whenever they crit someone and cannot be cleansed.

BG's ALSO get a crit chance tactic. In fact, Knights are the only 2H tank that don't get a crit chance tactic and some form of parry from tactics/abilities. Of course you know this since you are such a self-proclaimed master of Warhammer and just trying to bring justice to everyone who is simply "crying" (Anyone who uses the word crying in their post loses about 10 points immediately).

The only unique utility that Knight brings is an aoe mez that is sometimes useful, the Magus/Engi aoe mez is longer and therefore better; They have a resist aura which is replaceable with a SM/Borc in most situations; They have Focused Mending, 15% free healing. This isn't mirrored on anywhere else in the game and is the core part of a Knight.

Like 2h BG, they bring a wounds debuff and 10% crit debuff aoe. These are huge and important.

Nothing that I have just said is a reductivist argument.

You can PayPal me 20 dollars for this lesson. Please learn the game before you post more stuff.

Okay let's compare the two abilities with the associated tactics slotted, using an example of a 24 man vs 24 man warband fight which the game is primarily based around for end game content..

Crimson Death duration: 10 seconds
Arcing Swing duration: 20 seconds

Crimson Death range: 40 feet (wide-cone)
Arcing Swing range: 25ft (180° arc)

Hastened Doom debuff: Costs 30 Hate and requires a critical hit to land (success rate based on chance to be crit % of target and absorb shields)
Overpowering Swing: Costs 55 AP or 35 AP with tactic, and requires a normal hit to land (success rate based on defense chance %)

Absorbs do not evade the wounds and crit debuff from Arcing Swing. Hastened Doom will not trigger against an absorb shield.

Knights can easily apply the wounds debuff whilst standing behind a Destro train and affect almost every target in it’s range. Blackguards can use the Filled with Fury tactic to increase the success rate of the wounds debuff, but still not a guarantee to be applied on as many targets as the Knight is capable of.

The Knight’s version of increasing it’s crit chance is with Overpowering Swing. It’s only a 10% debuff, has to be applied and can be cleansed by a zealot or shaman. The difficulty with cleansing is that these healers cannot pick or choose what to remove if their friendly targets have multiple stacks of curses, hexes and ailments on them. To cleanse all these debuffs the healers would have to immediately break their healing rotation and by the time they’ve fully cleansed each affected party member, the Order warband morale dump would have ended.

Let’s say both the Knight and Blackguard debuff has a 100% proc rate on an enemy train, what is the difference between the two after that?

Here is where it gets better for the Knight…

As soon as the aoe wounds and crit debuff is applied, the Knight is also applying the same targets with a choice of up to 3 passive debuff auras that can’t be cleansed and cover the entire range of Arcing Swing. The choices are resistance, toughness, healing, strength, action point and setback debuff. Running toughness and resistance auras deliver more overall ceiling damage to the targets in the area affected. Enemies will become squisher for your melee and ranged dps. The strength, healing, action point and setback auras will hinder their use of abilities effectiveness. In comparison the Blackguard clearly shines with better single target debuffs, which falls short against a Knight when helping morale bomb groups of enemies, a key component of RoR gameplay.

Magus and Engineers have a better mez however they have to run through or around the fighting melee trains (Engies avoid getting Choppa pulled) in order to throw an effective mine into the enemy backlines during a morale drop. Heaven’s Fury has a larger frontal range and there is a lot less of a positioning issue in terms of survivability. For the record I never run Heaven’s Fury (Engie mines and Magus infestations included) as it's easily broken and ruins the rotation of abilities of the single target party. Off topic, Engies aoe knockdown is considerably better to utilise in this environment.

Tanks that have resistance buffs do not passively debuff resistances of targets at the same time. With respect to SM’s and BO’s, require giving up a better war bellow/blade enchantment that actually does steal stats but still requires a chance to proc and is totally random on what it steals/buffs. For those tanks to buff a particular resistance for 10 seconds (that doesn’t refresh itself) they have to selectively target an enemy that does resistance base damage and hit them multiple times before the buff is in effect. These defensives will not guarantee the correct resistance buffed to counter the enemies damage as many classes do more than one type of resistant based attacks.

I really don't know what to say to you anymore. We're not trying to get the game balanced for 1v1. We're trying to get Knight damage slightly buffed and maybe give them an avoidance buff; maybe rework a couple of tactics.

We've posted the damage of every tank besides SM in a variety of gear. I've provided math proofs on how to beat armor for those of you who aren't. They even just put in target dummies with armor, FS3 and a TTK lmao. This will only further my evidence as IB has the highest raw DPS with the dot-stacking too.

Let me say this one more time and see if it sinks in, we are trying to get Knight damage slightly buffed so they aren't unreasonably behind every other tank in the game. Some tanks are doing 1.5x-2x a Knight's damage. The Spirit Damage tanks deal spirit damage and are strong in 1v1's against tanks, both realms have one. IB's are probably doing 3x the damage of a Knight due to dot-stacking.

But you keep comparing the classes again in a 1v1 situation. I’m just making a counter argument to the claims in how you perceive that this class is falling behind in warband contribution.

A 2h knight can get a reasonable rate (with renown and gear) of parry, dodge and disrupt. One reason why they don’t have incredibly high avoidance abilities in 2h gear is because of the nerf to weapon skill contribution to parry % (knights could get 100% parry with old Runefang). However they have an ability to decrease incoming damage by 50%, a M1 3600 absorb shield that scales well with high toughness, a M2 240 toughness buff and 240 wounds buff that counts as a 2400hp heal also. If the Knight wants to face tank warbands in ORvR, they can use Guardian of Light with Vigilance, effectively doubling the quality of the absorb shield and it means no critical hit damage is being taken during that time. However a good Knight player will rarely be in a situation during a city siege where they need to use that morale or Vigilance for that matter. A 2h Knight shouldn't be guarding a bombing BW or Slayer anyway.

Again you are comparing the damage of each individual tank against the Knight and linked gifs and a video of tanks hitting targets (with no mitigation) for less than double of what my Knight (with better gear) could hit the same target with.

The real question that needs to be asked is on top of the mediocre dps numbers a Knight can dish out, exactly how much more damage does the WARBAND do with a 2h Knight in comparison to other tanks. That is the end game question.

If players rolled a Knight to level to 40 and are upset that it doesn't do 3k worth of damage in a few seconds, and only then realised at that point the Conquest tree actually enables their each of the dps in the warband to do that extra burst damage instead, well....

detrap wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:10 am TLDR; Arcing Swing > Crimson death. Auras are OP. Arcing swing is auto i win button, so knights should hit like wet noodle.

Summed all that up for everyone. Really dude, You don’t think knight needs anything more after your vast amount of experience in invader/vanq?

detrap wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:10 am The real question that needs to be asked is on top of the mediocre dps numbers a Knight can dish out, exactly how much more damage does the WARBAND do with a 2h Knight in comparison to other tanks. That is the end game question.

It seems in this topic completely messed up everything. Not a single abstract test on a dummy will answer this particular question, but empirically everyone knows that all three Destro tanks in any build give more raw damage output. And if you compare not separate tree (although why not BG has comparatively the same tools and even if not 100% but 70% parry is more than easy) but in their mirrors in most scenarios BO is stronger than SM as single and AoE, BG is much more AoE than IB. And finally Ch is far ahead of (very far) from Kobs. Add to this the absence of an elemental debuff on the order, BO ability to take aoe WS buff, morale self pump, and a complete picture of the dominance of one faction archetype over another.

Initially, the iconic ability was taken away from the Kobs, and in return they gave something that worked only in very niche conditions. Now they took this too. Any nerfing of the alpha tank around which the whole game is built is an indirect nerf of the whole realm so people just drop the class.
I am the only one against the return of the old tactics because his mirror, which already walks on the edge of decency, gives an ultimatum advantage. Although they are children of the warp, they may be so.

Alucard2010 wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 9:38 am

detrap wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:10 am TLDR; Arcing Swing > Crimson death. Auras are OP. Arcing swing is auto i win button, so knights should hit like wet noodle.

Summed all that up for everyone. Really dude, You don’t think knight needs anything more after your vast amount of experience in invader/vanq?

Trying to dismiss my case by misquoting me is not really appropriate behaviour...

I did suggest for starters that they could reduce/remove the cooldowns/gcd on changing auras. It's essentially the class mechanic but it's time consuming having to swap auras during a fight.

This topic has veered off too much.

The discussion is about the removal of the tactic Mighty Soul.

Arguing how to play the class or what the class can do or cant do is futile. Playing classes efficiently in the meta is a whole different discussion.

But there are some of you who are advising to reroll. I have to say that I detest people who do that. Not everyone chooses a class to play because of their functionality. Thematics, lore, aesthetics, etc. also play a huge part.

To sum up how I feel about this change I will tell a story.

Once upon a time in a popular MMO there was a certain healing class who was shamed, trolled and flamed for running a DPS spec. Was the class effective in dealing DPS? NOPE it sucked. But did people play it? Yes. Why? Mostly because of a certain meme ability which allowed the class do to big burst occasionally. It was in no way a viable spec to help the player progress in the endgame. Nor was it an IWIN button where your enemy dies a horrible death as you continue to sip on your tea, but still you could roam solo, shunning those who shunned you, and kill your enemies in glorious and honourable combat with skill and luck. To this day that ability is feared, revered and talked about by most as it holds a special place in the pantheon of that game.

Mighty Soul was that ability for me in Return of Reckoning.

After hours of tanking, guarding, punting, buffing others (meh) I collected the gear I needed to be truly free from it all and I had a blast.

Now its gone.....not even enough time so say goodbye......

hammerhead wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:05 am

detrap wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:10 am The real question that needs to be asked is on top of the mediocre dps numbers a Knight can dish out, exactly how much more damage does the WARBAND do with a 2h Knight in comparison to other tanks. That is the end game question.

It seems in this topic completely messed up everything. Not a single abstract test on a dummy will answer this particular question, but empirically everyone knows that all three Destro tanks in any build give more raw damage output. And if you compare not separate tree (although why not BG has comparatively the same tools and even if not 100% but 70% parry is more than easy) but in their mirrors in most scenarios BO is stronger than SM as single and AoE, BG is much more AoE than IB. And finally Ch is far ahead of (very far) from Kobs. Add to this the absence of an elemental debuff on the order, BO ability to take aoe WS buff, morale self pump, and a complete picture of the dominance of one faction archetype over another.

Initially, the iconic ability was taken away from the Kobs, and in return they gave something that worked only in very niche conditions. Now they took this too. Any nerfing of the alpha tank around which the whole game is built is an indirect nerf of the whole realm so people just drop the class.
I am the only one against the return of the old tactics because his mirror, which already walks on the edge of decency, gives an ultimatum advantage. Although they are children of the warp, they may be so.

It's made for some interesting discussion.

Destro tanks being overall better than their order counterparts is simple not true.

Blackguards have an ability to buff their parry to avoid the next 4 attacks, similar to Oathstone on IB's but it doesn't last more than a couple seconds because it factors in guard damage.

SM's have amazing aoe skills thanks to Path of Vaul which has an 20% aoe damage debuff and an aoe interrupt. Perfect for controlling the dps of Destro trains. They also have two morale drains instead of a morale pump, one of those drains also removes 25% damage and heal crit with a tactic. Whereas a BO needs a tactic and a shield to drain or pump their morale. Knights can have a powerful aoe morale drain also.

Chosens are ahead on damage over the Knight because they mirror the SM in terms of spirit based damage and don't have to rely heavily on stacking weapon skill. By no means are Knights inferior to Chosens in other aspects of utility and warband play.

Never needed to run MS in city warbands, using it saved me from stacking weapon skill to do the similar damage, but at the same time would put my healers under extra stress. Extra heals on me means less heals on the party members that need it.

MS/DW caused the Raze morale to do critical damage, this is a known bug that shouldn't be happening.

People will drop the class because they were using MS build for the warband when they shouldn't. Could argue that point for being a single target assist group, however stacking weapon skill as well as strength will bridge that gap. They might also drop the class because they misunderstood how the class can contribute to the warband when they don't have high end gear to do adequate dps.

MS was bottom on the list for tactics I would use for any scenario/solo roam/warband play. If I really wanted to top damage numbers for tanks in a city but have 0 deathblows, I would just use the two damage auras and have Shield of the Sun on reduced cooldown with increased damage and just sit in the Destro blob.

detrap wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:10 am

I main destro. Hastened Doom is up near 100% after 10 seconds into a fight. Knights DID NOT reach 100% parry with WS with the old formula. Str denied it completely so your WS on your character sheet contributing to parry basically meant nothing.

Resist debuff from Auras are only relevant for a Knight debuffing Ele for a BW/RP, in every single other case, there's a better debuff that does it.

Paypal me another 10.