Return of Reckoning

SC scoreboards/videos prove nothing. Make actual arguments instead of linking random videos - Penril

Azarael wrote:Auto attacks are not a skill and do not break Pounce's charge component...

i'll go back in retest then, it could be that i misintepreted the boost ending early when I saw white auto attack damage, but either way, that just reaffirms im not finding it the 100% landing its being advertised as, though only finding that maybe 15-20% of the time, I guess lag could account for some of that also. Still, its only a small tweak away from being at that success rate.

Additionally, I do intend the changes I mentioned to give more of a role to WL in large warfare, so im not jsut covering pounce as is, I was told to include that info here and not in my other proposals discussion (so its clear why I have in case anyones wondering).

Additional +1, the pounce cc immunity could function as elven grace for that short period (so only roots and snares), but im open to ideas/suggestions on how else a secondary function could work, my intention is to allow a backline attack/setup in large warfare. If they are locked down immediately, which would be the case at the moment, obviously this doesnt work, hence my suggestion.

No more changes to Pounce please. Its fine how it is now.

peterthepan3 wrote:Why are people not playing with BOs to increase that cd further to 15secs? It seems - as usual - people are arguing from a solo perspective. Even if a WL pounces you, you should not be dying without an inc hd and if you have good tanks and heals.

10 sec cd is more than enough for a class completely reliant on burst dps and mobility. There are so many ways to counter a WL it's not even funny.

On my time before I deleted my WL, partly due to this change and the reception it received. I noticed that of all the DPS classes in the game WL was the epitome of a PUG slayer class. By design the class heavily punished not playing properly, especially in the case of being out of position without guard/peels and heals (the most common mistake). You'll notice in that latter statement it's implied that being in a proper group is required... and it is to deal with pre nerf WL who has a premade behind him (notice I don't say 1v1).


There is a phenomenon in gaming, were a certain class/hero has a kit that is seemingly built around punishing something that the casual playerbase at large is guilty of doing. I could go on forever with a few examples, but in this case I'll just use the recent game overwatch and its hero Roadhog as an example.

Roadhog has a medium long range "hook" ability that pulls anyone it touches into extremely close melee range, enter his shotgun... and you have an extremely nasty 1hko in a lot of cases just for simply being hooked. Now in the competitive scene, and high level play players actually play like a team and don't run around like chickens with their heads cut off, they play behind their tanks and their shields and push as a group which can save a player who gets hooked and down a hog in seconds thanks to his gigantic hitbox and limited mobility. But in PUG play, people rambo in 1 by 1, they don't push as a team, and they don't think of the game as a team game so much, so they lack the countermeasures like say a zarya bubble etc... So every day you go on gaming sites, Bnet forums and there would be thread after thread after thread of NERF Roadhog, and thankfully after months that's never happened because blizzard hasn't given in to it's casual playerbase.

I really believe WL to be a very similar case, just replace hook with pounce. It's my opinion that this change was giving into a pug argument, and I'm sure most of you want to crucify me for saying this.

Regardless, after saying all that do I think WL isn't viable anymore? No. WL is still a top tier DPS, but there lies a very big problem with that. Ask yourself "Would WL still be good if it didn't have the armor debuff", and you begin to see the class is pretty much held on by a thread called force opportunity. Any changes to armor, as discussed in the state stabilization thread, or changes to the meta in terms of entry of classes with armor debuffs (like IB), can drastically sway WL's place in the game/meta. But if we look to mara, who has the mirror ability, that class is still perfectly viable without cutting claw. I've recently been playing the monstro spec in ORvR and it's a shining example of what a MDPS should be in large scale ORvR fighting, and that spec doesn't have cutting claw or even thunderous blow. And even from a single target perspective, losing cutting claw isn't the end of mara for a myriad of reasons.

A self applied cc immunity is already afforded to everyone via resolute defense, granting it on a ten second cooldown will never happen, furthermore with lions using pounce as an alternative to positioning via being able to pounce on back from every single punt they receive is absurd. Pounce should not be able to be triggered while you're flying through the air.

@Jaycub: I kinda agree with you. The funny thing is that I wrote this in July of 2010 in response to 1.3.6 that gave WLs the armor debuff (I belive):

"White Lions getting a high value armor debuff (supposed to mirror Marauder one so something in the range of 1400) seems like a knee-jerk reaction. Now, I’m not an experienced WL so my opinion probably doesn’t count for much, but WL was only 3 steps away from being a balanced career in my eyes. An AP management tactic, fixed pet and speccable PvE tactics replaced with something worth while. This armor debuff will lead to WLs bursting down people in 3-4 sec, which will lead into another knee-jerk reaction with some other aspect of the career being nerfed (possibly mobility, don’t you touch Pounce, heathen!). Please reconsider this Mythic, I’d sooner leave the career as it is now, rather than WL being overpowered for a week or two and then being gutted into oblivion."

Funny how I could see what was going to happen with only having a T3 WL back then and Mythic couldn't...

I'm pretty sure the white lion armour debuff stacks with its pets armour debuff, making it a nice chunk.

As to The options proposed for pounce, I would rather see it stay the way it is at the moment, that tactic that makes the pet run super fast catches up to the elf that pounced very fast and specing it to have the perma snare ability seems very affective at keeping the prey close to hit. Also the white lion has a charge to close the gap and if they have to they can use the poor mans charge with a flee and an action pot.

How it is at the moment without any more changes feels well balanced

I'm pretty sure the white lion armour debuff stacks with its pets armour debuff, making it a nice chunk.

As to The options proposed for pounce, I would rather see it stay the way it is at the moment, that tactic that makes the pet run super fast catches up to the elf that pounced very fast and specing it to have the perma snare ability seems very affective at keeping the prey close to hit. Also the white lion has a charge to close the gap and if they have to they can use the poor mans charge with a flee and an action pot.

How it is at the moment without any more changes feels well balanced

Being able to pounce while being airborne needs to be fixed and played before anything else is tweaked in either direction.

Torquemadra wrote:

NoRKaLKiLLa wrote:Being able to pounce while being airborne needs to be fixed and played before anything else is tweaked in either direction.

it is fixed next patch, shush

Awesome! Cheers torque.