Return of Reckoning

I'd be quite content with not having pet for AoE spec, it does little to nothing in large fights.

Even with Spirit dmg tactic up, running high crit from renown + Conq + subju Weap (25%), with crit increaser tactic and Str tactic... the dmg is pretty weak. 50-100-200 dot ticks there and there, whatever "burst" you have is the occasional 400-600 ticks from Whirling Axe for which you barely have any AP left in any fight lasting longer than 10-15 sec.

Now the question is, do you leave the class as it is now, so you maybe pick 1-2 WLs for their utility for warband to get those morale drains and the AoE KDs - or do make it possible to have more than one or two token debuffer WLs in a warband contending for dps spots?


more possible ideas (probably flawed but whatever, trying to think more options);
-disorient as AoE debuff?
-minor CD increaser AoE utility debuff?
-minor AoE snare?
-meagre AoE AP steal?
-self crit buff like Maras?
-"git to da choppa" mirror, "Lasso of Kurnous", maybe similar to Choppa aoe pull, but no stupid self speed buff so you cannot use it as a semi-charge. (could either replace Whirling Axe from 13pts or push it downwards or whatever)
-Pack Assault with tactic pumping morale? - maybe bit like shaman Get Movin' (less? more? same? dunno if needed)


The class is getting better, but it's still doubtful how many WLs you really want into a proper warband. Morale drain is "cool" tool, but against pugs overkill and issue remains that Destro just doesn't have lot of cool bomb M2s you would be removing (no Sorc M2 bomb morale, no Choppa M2 bomb morale, Mara M2 nerfed... mainthreat being Razes from Chosen+BO, which you can interrupt with relative ease).
Of M4 threats... not many Sorcs left that would be doing coordinate M4 drops nor guilds running more than 1-2 Sorcs in warband (Choppas all over the place instead heh)... maybe you might avoid those BO M3s or WE/Magus/SH M2 bombs, but feeling those classes aren't making too much of a warband player population.
And with reduced gains, big portion of fights just don't see morales launched due to having small size or just being over before M2 or M3 can be reached. (or everyone is draining everyone and thus they cannot be felt hue hue)

Aurandilaz wrote: ↑Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:26 pmNow the question is, do you leave the class as it is now, so you maybe pick 1-2 WLs for their utility for warband to get those morale drains and the AoE KDs - or do make it possible to have more than one or two token debuffer WLs in a warband contending for dps spots?

Alright, just so we are clear, what do you consider aoe damage worth of a dps slot in your warband?

A Bw with annihilate would be good enough for you or what are we aiming at?

bloodi wrote: ↑Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:14 pm

Aurandilaz wrote: ↑Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:26 pmNow the question is, do you leave the class as it is now, so you maybe pick 1-2 WLs for their utility for warband to get those morale drains and the AoE KDs - or do make it possible to have more than one or two token debuffer WLs in a warband contending for dps spots?

Alright, just so we are clear, what do you consider aoe damage worth of a dps slot in your warband?

A Bw with annihilate would be good enough for you or what are we aiming at?

Closer to mara levels, bit below Choppa levels. So that building a melee frontline of WLs, SLs and WHs might be just a decent pick compared to building the classic 6-8 BWs in line.
Destro doesn't stack Sorcs, because building a frontline of Choppas+Maras and the occasional WE is "good enough", as they have both combination of decent enough AoE output (after all the debuffing, like AoE armor debuff from zealot) and crowd dispersal tools (choppa pull).
Order, for very good existing reasons, chooses optimal setup from stacking BW BW BW BW BW BW BW + extra guest...
Slayer is close to Choppa levels of utility+Dps, I'd rate both as decent choices, but Choppa can cause more wreck with the AoE pulls. WL in its infancy is still bit below Mara, and I hope the gap becomes less wide with whatever changes Aza has planned to make them not just a utility pick, but maybe a mara+choppa-like utility+dps pick.

And BW Annihilate... I assume you have enough BW experience to know that Anni alone doesn't cause the "melt", its the combination of Anni + FP + WF + FoR + career crit modifier causing the melt.

If the game ever wants to change the way Order builds optimal warband setups (without nerfing whole realm too much relative to destro with blank BW nerfs), the other dps picks - WL-SL-WH-dpsRP-SW-Engi-dpsWP-dpsAM, have to be prepared to take up the mantle and that means where BW dps might become lower, the dps from other classes has to get bit higher.

You wrote a lot and mostly evaded the question but did state that order wbs best aoe dps is BW, which previous to this patch, i would agree with.

However, while its true that annihilate doesnt kill people by itself, its a big part of why they kill people at all and you even say why, so lets put that combo to test and show how much it can do, by itself, shall we?



So, we got crit on every annihilate, got WF to proc and critted with it, its not out of the ordinary, my BW runs like 63% crit by himself, so critting on every hit is normal. Also, the int for the test is 950 or so. However, we got the start to allign with all crits, Buff procced on every hit and WF procced and critted on both damages.

Its a dummy because we are after all, testing theoricall damage, if we all it all up, its a whooping 4700 damage, its the maximum amount we can do and only way to improve it is by getting a wp in our group that would add 3 procs, at best, for lets say, 300-400 damage, lets round it all up and say, Annihilate is on the 5k damage ballpark, probably less but hey.

Now lets do the same, with a Wl`s whirling axe.



So we are seeing a Keen edge + loner + str + Spirit damage tactic Wl with both PF and IF up (something you almost always can do) hitting the whirling axe on the dummies, if we do the math, its a whooping 4100 damage, with no external aid and unlike the BW, it can get a lot better, it crit only twice and being in a warband will only make it crit more,nevermind the fact that now wl can debuff ini, it hits 7 god damn times in those 3 secs, meaning if you add BW and Wp buffs, lets say both proc 2 times because we are being stingy so we are not overexaggerating, then we are hitting quite close to the 5k the BW was getting on annihilate.

What i am getting at here is simple, you are either not testing the damage properly or spitting bullshit out of your mouth when you say Wl aoe damage is subpar and needs more, not only is not bad, it may be top tier ihe current situation with the right composition.

So, please, dont start another arms race where you start pretending that every buff a class gets is not enough till we end with another broken class for a while.

Tl;DR Whirling axe outperforms Annihilate by a margin (i am using almost the maximum annihilate versus an average Whriling axe in the tests) when you add the other tools, WL its probably the best aoe dps on Order right now.

You pick Annihilate, which is one of the many tools that BW has for bombing.
Whirling Axe is the "main" bursty AoE output of WL, rest is small dot there, small dot here.

Why don't you go proof the "superiority" of AoE WLs by making a WB of them and trying to beat a WB of BWs in dmg/kills? Would love to see that happen.
Hitting test dummies is one thing, but actual RvR situations... where be the OP herds of WL doing their whirling axes?

I'm still of the mind that WL needs some tweaks and adjustments so you can eventually witness similar number of AoE maras and AoE WLs in RvR. Otherwise its better to stick with the old good BW stack.

Aurandilaz wrote: ↑Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:36 pm You pick Annihilate, which is one of the many tools that BW has for bombing.
Whirling Axe is the "main" bursty AoE output of WL, rest is small dot there, small dot here.

So you didnt play it did you?

Here is a simple test of what a Wl can do on multiple targets and a basic bomb rotation for the time both PF and IF are up.



You open with ethereal cleave thanks to its range and how it debuffs, greataxe slam their ass, pop whirling axe and finish the last 2 gcds where you have IF up with 2 Slashing blades. Thats the "small dots" you mention?

Aurandilaz wrote: ↑Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:36 pmWhy don't you go proof the "superiority" of AoE WLs by making a WB of them and trying to beat a WB of BWs in dmg/kills? Would love to see that happen.
Hitting test dummies is one thing, but actual RvR situations... where be the OP herds of WL doing their whirling axes?

Because unlike damage tests on dummies, there is a lot of variables in there, i would need 23 people more to test at all and thats just my side, i would need an equally skilled 24 man wb on the other side, since now Wl faces the same exact resistances (magical ones) as a bw, why wouldnt theorical damage tests suffice? Its controllable and you can extrapolate them.

So, until you somehow prove any of this wrong, i would love you to do so, we can safely assume that Wl is not only not bad at aoe damage but its indeed great at it.

Again, try that in actual RvR where enemies have resis buffs and decent levels of toughness to counter considerable portion of your dps.
You can get all kind of fancy dmg done on testing dummies that have no resistances, no armour, no toughness, no initiative.

Try actual RvR.

Aurandilaz wrote: ↑Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:52 pm Again, try that in actual RvR where enemies have resis buffs and decent levels of toughness to counter considerable portion of your dps.
You can get all kind of fancy dmg done on testing dummies that have no resistances, no armour, no toughness, no initiative.

Try actual RvR.

But i dont have to, thats the problem you are facing, all those things you mention are true for both of them, both will face toughness and resistances, so, thats why we test theorical damage.

They are both magical now, what do you think would change in real rvr that a wl would have to face and a bw would not?

Thank you for testing and sharing.
Would be nice after this, why wl still should get a buff? Yes he lacks some utility but isnt it only ap rip of(tactic based)and wave of terror(order 2x225 moral drains should be a okay trait off)?