Return of Reckoning

Martok wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:38 pm A short response to some of the issues raised here utilizing video from a recent city defense:


Click here to watch on YouTube

i see your video, but sorry you was part of problem, no guard, 2 hand dps SM in city? and you are wondering how fast can order diedm its becouse more people like you going to city in wrong spec

Foltestik wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:08 am

Martok wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:38 pm A short response to some of the issues raised here utilizing video from a recent city defense:


Click here to watch on YouTube

i see your video, but sorry you was part of problem, no guard, 2 hand dps SM in city? and you are wondering how fast can order diedm its becouse more people like you going to city in wrong spec

All this, 9 times out of 10 these people complaining have nothing to blame but themselves

Mystry wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:38 am

Vayra wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:40 pm Cities are end-game content. And should reward coordination and preparation. I've both pugged cities, joined 12 mans, and gone in with a premade from some of the better destro guilds. You can always find some group willing to take you, though the very best might be more restrictive on classes and/or gear.

By your own signature you play a sorc, a dok, and a BG.

I challenge you to find a single non-**** city warband that will invite you when you're playing a non-meta class.

Duh, play good classes. The whole thing going on is just a reee I want my ST Snipe Engi to be good in 24 man fights. It isn't. If you don't want to get stomped in cities play a class that is good in city. People that want to win don't want your **** spec and class dragging down the other 23 people in the warband.

You are not entitled to join good WBs on a **** class. You are not entitled to be good at all sizes fights on every class. You chose to play class that doesn't add anything to a WB, You have to deal with what that means for joining optimized groups.

I don't see many people moaning about their classes not fitting into the 6v6 meta - they just realise to compete they need to play something else.

It´s funny that somebody brought up this "see it as sports" point. There is nothing more anti-sports than pvp in most MMORPG's and Warhammer is and was never an exception. Warhammer at it´s core is not a competitive game. There are no mechanics in place to ensure that opponents are en par with each other. I mean you can be happy if there are equal numbers on either side. Too far is the difference in RR, Gear, Skill Level / Experience. This is like in Football a match between premier league and juniors. No this has absolutely nothing to do with sports at all. The sooner one can accept that fights are not meant to be fair, the easier it gets to live with getting stomped from time to time.

Martok wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:38 pm A short response to some of the issues raised here utilizing video from a recent city defense:


Click here to watch on YouTube

what the hell
you join total pug ride, enter city, dont even guard nor use shield, watch as your own side fails completely while you gathering notes... then start arguing that pugs need protection in the endgame warband vs warband content where they cannot be arsed to form proper groups and still somehow expect to leech the endgame gear rewards?
You know what happened to live? People pushing Altdorf 6 times a day, farming empty instances for pve+pvp rewards, dodging fights, grinding endgame gear from doing optimized and well timed "empty dungeon runs" and then getting from 0 to 100 in about 3-6months, deciding they were complete and eventually quitting coz endgame had no other content to provide.

PvP is never meant to be "balanced", the side that plays better wins. The side that plays less better, does lose and die. Maybe they will learn from their mistakes and become better, which might include learning new tactics or earn renown to buy better gear/points, maybe they will improve their teamplay or class synergies, and maybe a few weeks later after some improvement they come back and win. Or, considering the usual pug choice, they point out that the game is somehow imbalanced and demand "fair" rewards for showing up and barely trying, and then make forums posts about how devs are biased or how game somehow needs new pugfriendly cityleech mode for even easier gearing process.

Foltestik wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:08 ami see your video, but sorry you was part of problem, no guard, 2 hand dps SM in city? and you are wondering how fast can order diedm its becouse more people like you going to city in wrong spec

Myopia appears to be a contagion here. The issue presented in the video you claim to have watched isn't that I intentionally entered a city instance solo. The issue is the Stage Three Champion fight lasted for less than sixty seconds. Any claim the fault for that lies in the fact I was in 2h spec is moronic.

I appreciate the fact Wargrimer took the time to respond to my post, I do. However even there the central question posed went unaddressed. Was the type of City Siege fight which occurred as illustrated truly the intended design of the City Siege?

Or, to phrase alternatively in regard to the OP, that you can't put two groups of 24 together in a city instance and have both of them be competitive, except under very limited and restrictive guidelines.

Jabba wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:14 amAll this, 9 times out of 10 these people complaining have nothing to blame but themselves

Again, before you can address an issue raised you first have to be able to accurately interpret what that issue is. Prattling all pious and self-righteously because someone might have played one segment of a video game in a manner you do not approve of isn't a poor reflection on the person who tried to enjoy himself playing a video game. But hey, there is a lot of that going around.

Aurandilaz wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:12 pmwhat the hell

Its called a video.

Aurandilaz wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:12 pmyou join total pug ride, enter city, dont even guard nor use shield, watch as your own side fails completely while you gathering notes... then start arguing that pugs need protection in the endgame warband vs warband content where they cannot be arsed to form proper groups and still somehow expect to leech the endgame gear rewards?

The only part of this you got right is I did intentionally join the instance solo, a fact I stated in the video. The remainder of your comment is elitist word-salad crap. I made no claims about players leeching endgame gear rewards nor, logically, would it matter if I ever had because I am not one of the developers here and I did not create the system which governs how rewards are issued. Nor did I ask, comment, or argue in any manner that "pug need protection in the endgame content."

I illustrated a condition which, to me, logic alone demands can't truly be the condition anyone here intended. The question I did ask stemmed from that condition and concerned retention of the player base.

Again, that in response to that you want to get all self-righteous because for one segment of one aspect of the game someone didn't play in your personally approved manner isn't a poor reflection on me.

Aurandilaz wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:12 pmYou know what happened to live?

Yeah, I do, and it started long before the City Siege instances were changed in the attempt to placate the remaining game population.

Aurandilaz wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:12 pmPeople pushing Altdorf 6 times a day, farming empty instances for pve+pvp rewards, dodging fights, grinding endgame gear from doing optimized and well timed "empty dungeon runs" and then getting from 0 to 100 in about 3-6months, deciding they were complete and eventually quitting coz endgame had no other content to provide.

And Warhammer is the only MMO game within which any such activity ever occurred?

You know I didn't want to bring this up, I really didn't. But given the personal nature of the responses I feel compelled. On the issue of dodging fights, if the OP of this thread has no valid point to make, please tell me why, prior to queing for a City Siege instance, premade warbands will find out who within holds the lowest renown rank, temporarily make them leader, and then have them que for the warband to enter the city?

But hey, I am sure the answer is because I didn't use a shield.

Aurandilaz wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:12 pmPvP is never meant to be "balanced"...

Then why have balance forums? Why would any Dev here ever bring the subject up, as they have from time to time?

Aurandilaz wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:12 pm...the side that plays better wins.

A truth I have no issue with. The issue as raised in the OP was one of dominance and being competitive.

Aurandilaz wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:12 pmOr, considering the usual pug choice, they point out that the game is somehow imbalanced and demand "fair" rewards for showing up and barely trying, and then make forums posts about how devs are biased or how game somehow needs new pugfriendly cityleech mode for even easier gearing process.

I never made any of these claims.

Martok wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:30 pm Again, before you can address an issue raised you first have to be able to accurately interpret what that issue is. Prattling all pious and self-righteously because someone might have played one segment of a video game in a manner you do not approve of isn't a poor reflection on the person who tried to enjoy himself playing a video game. But hey, there a lot of that going around.

Sure the issue is really, really simple. People are complaining because the game isn't what they want and they ignore what it he game actually is.

The optimal setup is a 2-2-2 warband, with competent players, using voice comms, and with mandated class choices and builds.

Now, any deviation from that isn't a stylistic choice - it's just worse. If you want to play without one of those things you can, you just have to accept the handicap you are giving yourself.

The further you move away from those aspects of the game, the more and more likely you are to get ****-stomped by any organised warband you see, because they are making the additional effort required to play in an optimal way, and you aren't.

Many players either don't want to, or don't have access to playing in that style - for a variety of reasons, including time investment, lack of interest in the effort required to play like that, or not knowing how to find / join groups that operate in that way.

Now, we can simplify this for lots of people, there is /5 - where you can make "PUG" warbands, with many public discords, that usually ascribe to the 2-2-2 setup. So apart from specifying each players exact class and build, this is many steps towards an optimal setup.

A corollary to this is that they often require players to play specific classes, because they are simply better at what is required in 24v24. This is just a fact of the game at this point. You cannot redesign the game from the ground up and make SW a viable PBAOE class - its entire skillset is the opposite of that. If you want to change so significantly, you are making an entirely separate, new game which isn't WAR.

So here's the kicker. If you want to enjoy cities, play classes that are good in cities - or accept the benefits you get in other areas of the game and stop complaining about not being good in cities. Join 2-2-2 warbands, or make your own in /5.

TL:DR - 2-2-2 WBs or stfu. It isn't that hard.

City instances having unbalanced class compositions and being exclusionary as such is a symptom of class balance issues, not the fault of Guilds building for meta. I want WE and WH and healer offspecs to be seen as acceptable too, but that's a mechanical issue, not a social one.

Every "good, modern" MMO has content that has the same social issues OP describes in city raids. There is always a type of content where running off-meta with PUGs amounts to shooting yourself in the foot and suffering extremely slow progress.

Hypernia wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:21 pmSure the issue is really, really simple. People are complaining because the game isn't what they want and they ignore what it he game actually is.

The optimal setup is a 2-2-2 warband, with competent players, using voice comms, and with mandated class choices and builds.

I have other video from other city instances, to include three separate occasions during which I was in a pre-made Alliance warband with competent, well-known, players using voice comms all in well balanced groups meticulously crafted to support each other. In other words all the magic bullets you cite. And when those fights were over in one specific case we had amassed a grand total of two kills and in another a grand total of four. Our opposition, conversely, racked up over 380 kills in the first case and close to that in the second.

My point here is not to complain about it. My point here is to illustrate there are more things in Warhammer, Hypernia, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Hypernia wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:21 pmNow, any deviation from that isn't a stylistic choice...

Apologies, but you haven't been paying attention.