Return of Reckoning

Bis dps can solo you if they know timing and cc or if you make 1 misstake

Bozzax wrote: Thu May 23, 2024 5:13 pm Yep simple and elegant solution to your problems lets nerf healers and make them less enjoyable to play until we have the right amount of healers online so we on average get a decent dps/heal/tank distribution

As an example lets use the #9 on weekly > Shaman
Skellingtton
Hollywood Production
Lvl 40
RR 78
kills 423 deaths 316

Totally op and unkillable while having a 100 v 10 death ratio like all other on the same list

Not sure how a solo DPS shaman is indicative of the survivability of healers

I'm relatively new to the game, but maybe my views could still be insightful.

(1) [Healers] Well, this is a team game, you are not supposed to 1v1 healers... I think in RvR there could be a debuff, something like "Lost and confused": "In RvR, if there are no Warband members within 100feet, your damage and healing is reduced by 50%". This would promote teamplay, cooperation, and make solo healers less broken. Win-win. Maybe WH/WE could have a mastery tactic that cancels this debuff, for the sake of having a ganker spec. In SCs, a lone healer means a healer that doesn't help in teamfights, which kinda balances itself out.

(4) [Tanks] For guarding outside of party, I think it would brake teamplay and cooperation, which in my opinion make RoR unique and separate it from other MMOs. I mean, in current system if 1 tank messes up, there is only 1 other tank to back him up. In your suggested system, if 1 tank messes up, there are 7 others to back him up. This reduces responsibility of each tank, makes battles a bigger slog since it is harder to kill anyone now. People no longer have to stick to their party, which promotes hivemind drifting as opposed to organised teamplay. Similarly with AOE heal outside of party.

I think core game design is rock-solid, with teamplay, cooperation and synergy between classes being strong points, making the game unique. Those should be preserved and emphasized.

Uchoo wrote: Wed May 22, 2024 11:26 am TL;DR: Add Personals, more player agency / autonomy !

If you make RoR more like "every other 3D MMO", you begin to compete with games that were actively developed for dozens of years with budgets of a small country If you make RoR to be more like WoW, why shouldn't you just play WoW instead? I think personal defensive CDs would reduce team dependence, again, losing on what I see as the attraction in RoR. I agree that it would make each class more interesting to play, but I also think it would make the game as a whole more boring to play. Also keep in mind that almost every other MMO is based around small scale PvP (for example, PvP in WoW with their personal CDs is designed around 3v3 deathmatches).

What I find strange about RoR is lack of CC. CCs are short, there are only 2 types of immunities and they are very harsh (instead of increasing DRs you immediately get full immunity for a long period of time). Unlike personal defensive CDs, CC can be used to save teammates, which I think is a better game design. So immunities can be replaced with increasing DRs leading to immunity, more CC can be added to some classes (like WE that struggles to be a useful frontliner).

The big question which everyone is missing is if its a solo dps or aoe dps. On a WE back in the day when I actively played it I could 1v1 healers just fine- 75% heal debuff + good single target dmg does that. From other hand, if you are trying to 1v1 healer on a toon specced for aoe, don't be surprised that you can't do what your toon isn't specced to do.

Lion1986 wrote: Thu May 23, 2024 4:57 pm

Ysaran wrote: Thu May 23, 2024 7:05 am I get the point about healers being though, but I think you are wrong. As a healer you can't kill anyone, if you nerf healers defenses and they can be killed by a single dps you get a situation where a healer can't kill anyone but can be killed by anyone. Why should I play healer if I'm just a walking sack of RP ready to be reaped? No one would play healer

Welcome to bw/sorcerer world sir.

Exactly my point. We already have two classes like that, we don't need another 6

Lion1986 wrote: Thu May 23, 2024 4:57 pm

Ysaran wrote: Thu May 23, 2024 7:05 am I get the point about healers being though, but I think you are wrong. As a healer you can't kill anyone, if you nerf healers defenses and they can be killed by a single dps you get a situation where a healer can't kill anyone but can be killed by anyone. Why should I play healer if I'm just a walking sack of RP ready to be reaped? No one would play healer

Welcome to bw/sorcerer world sir.

Not comparable: BW/Sorc are situationally really good and can rack tons of kills in some settings. While sorc might not have much fun in Ironclad scenario facing double slayer premade, it can get insane kills in large scale back and forth fights in rvr lakes if choosing right targets, positioning correctly & pressing the right buttons.

Also healers are not too hard to kill in this game. I think most people who claim that are not as skilled as they think they are and are not paying attention to all buffs/debuffs that is going on and are not setting up kills correctly. Edit: this is not a flame towards OP btw, just general observation from what I've seen in forums/ingame general and advice chats and OP is right about shammies being definitely hard to kill because of their kit and auto-detaunt (also I think hes right about SH pet disarm but thats besides the point I'm trying to make here).

But speaking in general, I think healers are not too hard to kill:
1) Healer survivability has already been nerfed a lot when armor talis got nerfed few years ago.
2) I can kill probably around 80% of the healers (of whole population so lowbies included) without heal debuff with most of my BIS dps, then for some need heal debuff and few minutes of time to get through their defensives. ...Then for some healers (really good ones) I probably can't kill them alone even with double heal debuff but why should I? Who says 1 dps should automatically be able to kill 1 healer solo anyways? Who would want to play healer in that kind of setting? We are playing MMO and not some survival horror game and if someone is into survival horror games, there is better options.
3) Apparently viable 6vs6 strat is to tunnel healer all game and kill him through guard and all defensives.

TLDR: Healers are fine, if something needs to be done, it's fine-tuning goblin racials (fine-tuning, not reworking) but thats it.

Who would want to play healer in that kind of setting?
3) Apparently viable 6vs6 strat is to tunnel healer all game and kill him through guard and all defensives.

Wow says hi!
Rift says Hi!
Lotro says HI!

Lion1986 wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 10:24 am

Who would want to play healer in that kind of setting?
3) Apparently viable 6vs6 strat is to tunnel healer all game and kill him through guard and all defensives.

Wow says hi!
Rift says Hi!
Lotro says HI!

Are you saying that is normal/meta-strat in pvp in those mmos? If so, Rift and Lotro I can't say anything about but with WoW at least in arenas that's a no, even on my level (and I'm not very good) let alone pro level. Depends on comp but normally you set up kills with CC chains. Healer can be kill target but more often healer is cc target. Watch the latest AWC if you don't believe.

lemao wrote: Wed May 22, 2024 9:43 am
Imagine in the current state of the game (exremely fast ttk) saying healers are to strong.

The need for a fast TTK is obvious - the protective safety net provided by healers and tanks is way too big, which means players have to circumvent it by killing things in the timespan of a CC/punt.

The fact that healers are way too tanky compounds this issue. In normal RPGs healers are squishy and vulnerable to harassment, which adds an additional tactical layer and provides more tactical options to break through the safety net. This is not the case in RoR.

Caduceus wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 10:55 am In normal RPGs healers are squishy and vulnerable to harassment,

Currently on a break from RoR, playing NWN 1 for a bit. Made a cleric. With self buffs- more armor than fighters, more melee damage as well (Darkfire), higher saves, very nice heals (heal yourself 10% to full in 1 spell lol), and in a few levels there is a nice set of instakill spells.

Haha have to wonder how RoR would react to something like this introduced for healer classes.

https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Slay_living