Return of Reckoning

i agree 100% with what sigmar priest told .

you cant nerf their rec you need to force them to be in the second line (behind tanks) when they need to spam relentless aoe heals which it alredy happen atm.

if other healer have cast time problem reduces the cast time of other healer or nerf not only dok/wp aoe nerf every aoe skill in game.

If atm dok/wp are always present and they keep wbs up and they are need for that it's the proof that damage are too high or other healers cannot keep up with them.

then there are still some problem like

cd increase, rkd , uncleanable snare which mast majority of you seems to deliberately ingore, until these stuff do not get tone down there is no way a wp/dok(even worst) can succesfully tank+ heal front line.
Also dok/wp have not the defense of a tank even with a aoe detaun they can be kd before re use it or even worst just focussed down but mere numbers of attacks.

which lead to another disparity wp can increase his parry or a IB can also buff it make it for him easier to tank + heal stationary which is not the same for dok.

Tesq wrote: you cant nerf their rec you need to force them to be in the second line (behind tanks) when they need to spam relentless aoe heals which it alredy happen atm.

When they are already at front line right behind melee/tank, what do we need to change? They are right in place where they belong. You make no sense.

When they are able to stand at back line and still spam their healing, then you have to move them closer to the front, not other classes closer to them, which would be the result of a range reduction.

Sulorie wrote:

Tesq wrote: you cant nerf their rec you need to force them to be in the second line (behind tanks) when they need to spam relentless aoe heals which it alredy happen atm.

When they are already at front line right behind melee/tank, what do we need to change? They are right in place where they belong. You make no sense.

When they are able to stand at back line and still spam their healing, then you have to move them closer to the front, not other classes closer to them, which would be the result of a range reduction.

at the current situation they are exatly there, they will not in future when more regen from and sov / jew /epic chalice will pop.

Tesq wrote:

Sulorie wrote:

Tesq wrote: you cant nerf their rec you need to force them to be in the second line (behind tanks) when they need to spam relentless aoe heals which it alredy happen atm.

When they are already at front line right behind melee/tank, what do we need to change? They are right in place where they belong. You make no sense.

When they are able to stand at back line and still spam their healing, then you have to move them closer to the front, not other classes closer to them, which would be the result of a range reduction.

at the current situation they are exatly there, they will not in future when more regen from and sov / jew /epic chalice will pop.

It won't happen if balancing measures are justified.

Shadowgurke wrote:

Defiance wrote:senseless discussion about non topic related stuff

...

Some of us find fallacies and the like interesting. The more you know may sound facetious, but I was given correct information to better inform my world view. Nothing wrong with that.

Defiance wrote: After 10+ years of watching classes get neutered in MMOs (and balance destroyed in the process), I don't mind the power creep. This has only ever been an issue after a: numerous expansions, b: mobas (which feature numerous expansions via characters).

Powercreep has been an issue in many games and it is not necessarily tied to new characters in mobas or expansions in MMOs

Really? Power creep happens before you add stuff (expansions, gear, skills, etc)? Where exactly is this power creeping up from... leveling? Further, if there's supposed to be an acceptable level of performance that all this balance talk is aiming for, why on Earth and beyond would you creep past that of your own volition? Is that not why there aren't any plans to go beyond RR80? Is that not why certain gear sets won't be in ROR? I'll give you the caveat that things change significantly from T2 to T4 for example, but that's a lot to do with CC (pull, punt, etc), and not so much raw power per se.

Power creep is a nice gaming term. That's like people talking balance and saying, "Oh yeah, I feel like x,y,z is in a pretty good place right now." as if they're talking about Irelia or something. It's entirely subjective. If you go objective, and start parsing numbers, then you have something to work with. You have "high mark"s and "low marks"s that can be empirically defined. Maybe this is something that should be considered so that when people go, "omg, OP!" there's a nice and dandy chart that'll tell them to go home.

We're not at that point, but if we're aiming for "the best WAR", then maybe we should try to be there instead of pretending like every "What can we do about this guys?" thread is worthy and valid.

I wanna address this specifically;

6 healers in the game. 2 being stronger than the others. Why would you not nerf the 2 overperforming ones?

Stronger at what? Stronger at raw healing? Based on... scenario charts? Based on...? We're not gonna look at the spells themselves or anything? "Let's just nerf the range! So they have to be up close!" like this will solve problems. Aren't people saying the problem is the group heal? Should other classes get one? Will their resource regen be nerfed also? They don't have to do damage to get resource at all. Ever. And this is why I'm always averse to nerfs. There has to be another way.

Why not leave DoKs alone, and make RP/AM more interesting? It's at the point now where people seem to be trained to nerfherd like getting hit on the knee at the doctor, and it shouldn't be that way. So, let's nerf Chalice DoKs, np, np. If they're still good at what they do, are people going to just start rolling RP/AM? I really doubt it. Sacrifice/Grace is still sexy, so a good number of us wouldn't go anywhere - you might even end up with more of us, and then you've got yet another problem embellished by over representation of ONE spec (out of 3, is this okay?). Then what? Nerf Sac? This is why nerfs are bad, and it doesn't help to call it readjusting or tweaking or fine tuning or whatever. It starts a game of whackamole that -never- ends.

How about you give people a reason to play RP/AM aside from, "Well, WP isn't as good anymore, so..." How about, after playing second fiddle to WPs for almost a decade now (8 yrs, right?), you give those who love their RP/AM a reason to a: love them more, and b: not feel second tier? I'm sure there are RPs/AMs out there who don't feel 2nd tier at all (but they wouldn't mind a sexy group heal, I'm sure).

Nerfing DoK/WP doesn't address any of RP/AM's UP issues. Further, after nerfing DoK/WP, you're still going to have to revisit RP/AM. I'm almost certain of it, since as I said before, I want to be able to use the spells Zealots give me, except they aren't worth the GCD. It has been this way since day one. How many times have we changed DoK/WP here compared to the others? How many more times do we need to nerf/fine tune/adjust/blah blah, before people are satisfied?

If DoKs are still #1 (or group heal kings, as it were), they won't be, nor will representation of other classes go up as a result. Give people a reason to play AM/RP aside from, "Well, my WP sucks now, so..." Make WPs suck, AM/RP is still gonna suck.

So, again, why should we not buff the others so that they are similarly awesome?

Moving on...

Gobtar wrote:Only one of the statements can be true:
-WP/Doks are where healers should be in power. Other classes need to be brought inline strength wise.

-Cloth healers are where healers should be power wise. Wp/Dok need to be adjusted.

What if you bring medium robe down a bit, and bring cloth up a bit? That would make neither statement true, as all 6 are being adjusted.

Damn man... this is why these threads just... :/



There are some good arguments coming around, more people presenting reasons why any change at all has to be very carefully considered (because of all the connected elements), and not just because there's a forum thread with mad people who have ideas. Everyone's got an idea and a lot of them (most, really) are not very good, as 31 pages can attest to.

Buff the others.

as i said a agree to tone down a bit dok/wp and buff a bit other regarding g-gleanse and g-healing, i dont like the way ppl want reach this objective which is a bad nerf to wp/dok instead of an adjustment, ppl want a heavy nerf and not a fix.

then force wp/dok frontlines is another matter and require more work than, let's nerf range or nerf g-heal.

Defiance wrote:
Some of us find fallacies and the like interesting. The more you know may sound facetious, but I was given correct information to better inform my world view. Nothing wrong with that.

At the same time you could just not attack a dev for being a dev and you would be fine without discussing fallacies for half of your text. There is always the PM function. Let's leave it at that and focus on the balancing part

Defiance wrote: Really? Power creep happens before you add stuff (expansions, gear, skills, etc)? Where exactly is this power creeping up from... leveling?

For the sake of the argument, let's assume all things I am going to state are true. Say WP/DoK are healing 200% more than other healers. You could a) nerf DoK/WP. Parity achieved again. Or b) buff all other healers. Parity achieved. The following things happen: DPS can't keep up with healing. You now buff DPS. Now Tanks can't guard through DPS. You now buff tanks. It's and endless spiral, with tanks being tough you don't need as much heal anymore and suddenly healers are all about utility and another healer is suddenly miles ahead because of his utility. Back to square one.

Stronger at what? Stronger at raw healing? Based on... scenario charts? Based on...? We're not gonna look at the spells themselves or anything? "Let's just nerf the range! So they have to be up close!" like this will solve problems. Aren't people saying the problem is the group heal? Should other classes get one? Will their resource regen be nerfed also? They don't have to do damage to get resource at all. Ever. And this is why I'm always averse to nerfs. There has to be another way.

Stronger at group healing, which is the majority of healing in War. Stronger at quick healing. Stronger at cleansing. Stronger utility. I know the thread is long but there are many reasons stated. IS "nerf range" the correct approach? I don't really know. Imo it makes WP/DoK require a better positioning skill which makes them harder to play which might just put them in a decent spot. I could be wrong. The whole point of this thread is to find out how to best change them

Why not leave DoKs alone, and make RP/AM more interesting? It's at the point now where people seem to be trained to nerfherd like getting hit on the knee at the doctor, and it shouldn't be that way. So, let's nerf Chalice DoKs, np, np. If they're still good at what they do, are people going to just start rolling RP/AM? I really doubt it. Sacrifice/Grace is still sexy, so a good number of us wouldn't go anywhere - you might even end up with more of us, and then you've got yet another problem embellished by over representation of ONE spec (out of 3, is this okay?). Then what? Nerf Sac? This is why nerfs are bad, and it doesn't help to call it readjusting or tweaking or fine tuning or whatever. It starts a game of whackamole that -never- ends.

This is entirely about healdok/wp. Nerfing those would not affect people playing Sac. I am fine with Sac DoK, I think a lot of people are- But groups need healers. So it doesn't matter that some roll DD because most coordinated RvR groups/WBs need a fixed amount of tanks and healers so it's reroll or play solo.

Second point: Yes, buffing AM/RP/Zel/Sham would be an option but those classes have different strengths and buffing them all in the same way might not achieve parity and buffing each individually could take very long, significantly longer than nerfing DoKs and WPs. Also: See powercreep. The only time when buffing the other 4 should be a consideration is if you think that healing right now is balanced around DoK/WP healing and nerfing them significantly reduces the healing quality in RvR.

Nerfing DoK/WP doesn't address any of RP/AM's UP issues. Further, after nerfing DoK/WP, you're still going to have to revisit RP/AM. I'm almost certain of it, since as I said before, I want to be able to use the spells Zealots give me, except they aren't worth the GCD. It has been this way since day one. How many times have we changed DoK/WP here compared to the others? How many more times do we need to nerf/fine tune/adjust/blah blah, before people are satisfied?

What issues do RP/AM have? They are not the best in everything? That is kind of why most of us want DoK/WP to be nerfed- once they are on par with AM/RP/Zel and Sham we can run with any 2 healers and still feel viable.

If DoKs are still #1 (or group heal kings, as it were), they won't be, nor will representation of other classes go up as a result. Give people a reason to play AM/RP aside from, "Well, my WP sucks now, so..." Make WPs suck, AM/RP is still gonna suck.

There are plenty of reasons to play AM/RP. AM has burst heal, puddle and resist debuff, RP has rituals marks and CC. Issue is they get overshadowed.

Vigfuss wrote:I think it's good to keep in mind that DoK/WP are by far the best group healer because of it's fast cast, and as a general thing it's not really a problem to have it defined by it's strength as a group healer. In general, a group healer is very good for PVP. ST healers just don't perform as well in pvp, but they have their own niche, and are still worth having in the right set up. One group healer can still carry, but one ST healer alone is never even close to enough.

I'm not saying it's balanced but I think every group will always want to have a group healer, and that's part of the reason why they're needed.

Yup. If the other healers lack the ability to spec optimally for RvR, I feel that's a problem of theirs that needs to be dealt with.

Vigfuss wrote:BTW is there still a plan in place to use the balance changes forum?

Yes. We're locking it until Tier 4. No thread outside of the balance forum will be acted upon.

I'm not sure if WP and DoK need any real adjustments, since they do their job fine, the way it's meant to be done. he one thing I'd agree on is reducing the passive regen of the second resource, but even that should be small - the risk would be them not being able to heal the damage done by the (already pretty powerful) dps.

What I'd like to see adjusted is Archmages and Shamans - give them a secondary effect related to their mechanic - exchange their points for a percentage bonus of the other type(damage for healing, healing for damage) when the other time is first used AND make casts into channels if points exist, each point reducing the slow-effect(100% as a start) by 25% in a multiplicative way but increase the total time needed by 5%(additive) per point. This would allow them to both kite as well as heal, even if it might be a bit slower, supporting them in more dangerous situations.

In case of Runepriests and Zelots, I'd like to propose a proc on a first heal(-tick in case of hots) depending on the rune on the person being healed. From a 2s shield, to a (stackable) 3s hot or a small lifesteal(1%?) on a group around the target, maybe limit it to 4 persons and 30 feet. This would also allow them to kite, while increasing their output a bit. This would also make the runes more important even if the stat boost is already supplied otherwise.

Defiance wrote:
Why not leave DoKs alone, and make RP/AM more interesting? It's at the point now where people seem to be trained to nerfherd like getting hit on the knee at the doctor, and it shouldn't be that way. So, let's nerf Chalice DoKs, np, np. If they're still good at what they do, are people going to just start rolling RP/AM? I really doubt it. Sacrifice/Grace is still sexy, so a good number of us wouldn't go anywhere - you might even end up with more of us, and then you've got yet another problem embellished by over representation of ONE spec (out of 3, is this okay?). Then what? Nerf Sac? This is why nerfs are bad, and it doesn't help to call it readjusting or tweaking or fine tuning or whatever. It starts a game of whackamole that -never- ends.

Am/shaman and rp/zealot are already well designed classes. They need small adjustments, but overall those four are among the most interesting and well balanced classes in game. If any class doesnt need to be changed, its those 4.

The problem with wps/doks isnt directly related to them, its related to the dps classes that are balanced around them. Slayers and maras are perfectly balanced when fighting 2 wp/dok groups. They arent when fighting 2 am/shaman groups. Whereas a 2 wh/we group is balanced when fighting a 2 am/shaman group, but is seriously gimp against a 2 wp/dok group.

So you have two options:

Buff am/shaman/rp/zealot to the level of wp/dok, and buff all dps classes to the level of slayer/mara

or

Nerf wp/dok and slayer/mara

Which one is simpler... buff 12 classes or nerf 4