Return of Reckoning

The purpose of adding a KD to 2h would be to increase the amount of CC the BG has while increasing the viability of 2h, correct?

The problem with adding a KD would apparently be that BG is too strong versus healers due to anti detaunt, heal debuff etc., also correct? (Ignoring the honestly laughable idea that adding a KD to the only 2h tank that doesn't have one somehow breaks the uniqueness of classes)

So how about adding a stagger? 5 or 6 seconds in duration, singletarget. Again, requirement would be a Twohander- It would increase the viability of 2H by adding an otherwise not available CC. It would not improve on the already strong SnB spec. Finally, it wont make BG more anti-healer than he already is.

Another option would be to somehow make both KD and Anti-Detaunt exclusive by putting the KD high into the offense tree.

All that being said, I would still prefer the simple solution to just mirror the IB KD. IB still has more group utility while BG would be a disruptive offtank

Azarael wrote:Given the discussion that's already taken place, I will give priority to any means of making 2h BG viable which doesn't involve giving them a KD.

Can I ask exactly why you come to this conclusion?

I personally don't see Warhammer ever growing into a higher skill cap game without changes like this.

Shadowgurke wrote:
The problem with adding a KD would apparently be that BG is too strong versus healers due to anti detaunt, heal debuff etc., also correct? (Ignoring the honestly laughable idea that adding a KD to the only 2h tank that doesn't have one somehow breaks the uniqueness of classes)

The BG has an anti-detaunt and a 5s knockdown with a shield on, with slightly less damage, especially at this stage of the game. The only real difference in kill potential being Crimson Death.

Gobtar wrote:

bloodi wrote:

Gobtar wrote:Working on ideas for party oriented abilities for the BG
.

As i said, abilities cant be new, they can only be direct copies of other abilities on the client.

...well poop....Aza can you confirm this?

Partial confirm. At the moment, we do not have the ability (or inclination) to perform the modifications required to incorporate new abilities. However, an ability need not be rendered a direct copy of another ability in the game. The functionality of an existing ability can be changed to almost anything, depending on how wrong you want the clients to be in the end, with the following hard exceptions:

- AP cost
- Requirements (text in blue, such as Requires Parry / Costs 20 Combustion)
- Range (if the ability is not AoE)
- Target type
- Cast time

Uchoo wrote:Can I ask exactly why you come to this conclusion?

I personally don't see Warhammer ever growing into a higher skill cap game without changes like this.

Going down the slippery slope of mirroring abilities is not something I want to do. I know slippery slope is mostly a fallacy, but in this case I believe it's valid. Mirror something from IB onto BG, if only in general concept, and other classes will pop up all over asking for copies of their opposite's better skills. This is why I say I would rather prioritise a solution which makes BG just as viable as having access to a 2H KD, without resorting to giving them a KD. At the moment, that's something that defines the two-handed BG spec (not for the better, I admit). If that distinction can be kept while still making the BG viable, it's a win for both class diversity and the BG.

Don't get me wrong - if it can be demonstrated that the 2h spec is lacking in T4, either through agreement or T4 usage statistics, and nothing else works, then KD it is. It's just not my first resort.

Well I don't have any ideas for 2H BG that don't involve CC. Their damage is fine, debuffs are useful and plentiful..

The thread is yours, gentlemen.

Uchoo wrote:Well I don't have any ideas for 2H BG that don't involve CC. Their damage is fine, debuffs are useful and plentiful..

The thread is yours, gentlemen.

True, true and true. As I said before, being squishy as hell seems the biggest problem for 2h bg. Why not to make bg more durable? But I honestly don't know how to make them more sturdy without buffing survivability of snb bg at the same time. Ideas?

Azarael wrote: Going down the slippery slope of mirroring abilities is not something I want to do. I know slippery slope is mostly a fallacy, but in this case I believe it's valid. Mirror something from IB onto BG, if only in general concept, and other classes will pop up all over asking for copies of their opposite's better skills. This is why I say I would rather prioritise a solution which makes BG just as viable as having access to a 2H KD, without resorting to giving them a KD. At the moment, that's something that defines the two-handed BG spec (not for the better, I admit). If that distinction can be kept while still making the BG viable, it's a win for both class diversity and the BG.

Don't get me wrong - if it can be demonstrated that the 2h spec is lacking in T4, either through agreement or T4 usage statistics, and nothing else works, then KD it is. It's just not my first resort.

I hold strong to my stance on the 2h KD being the proper and easiest fix, appealing to simple logic and experience. Although, if an alternate, impactful solution can be reached which does not include a KD, then I could support that change as well. I am all for the betterment of the playstyle in any way, shape, or form.

T4 will be a great time to show how wildly outclassed 2h BG is compared to SnB and 2h IB. When the time comes I'll likely do a video series on the three play styles in solo and group play. However, I predict the low 2h BG usage statistics will speak for itself.

One last note on the case for the 2h KD. Not only will the KD fill the void of lacking utility and hard CC, it also aids in securing successful punts. This is even more evident on RoR than live where even the smallest amount of lag/delay can result in a hilariously failed punt. The 2h IB and SnB BG has an easy time lining up a punt with the on-demand Cave-In and huge 5s SS.

Destro already has several KDs in different classes. What they don't have is something that increases overall crit chance to their group (and chance to be crit on enemies) like order has with KotBS and SW. 2H BGs should be really asking for a CD buff (15%, 10 sec duration) instead of a KD. Unfortunately people focus more on solo play and 1v1 instead of group/realm play.

but with crimson would u go full offensive tank or do u still stack toughness armor/talis and defensive renown abilities?

Crimson death "fixed" back to 5 seconds now, let's mourn the death of the short lived semi-viable 2h blackguard guys ;_: