Return of Reckoning

magicthighs wrote:Great, I'll continue to play because I enjoy playing then, while you chase after carrots you don't like.

Well, the thing is your can continue this argument for like everything in the game.

Lets say rank 40 needed 40 years of your life to attain it, would that be bad since you know, you play for fun?

Or maybe lets put all gear behind seniority barriers, you cannot get devastator unless you have 1 year ingame clocked, who cares right? Because you play for fun not for that gear.

Thats why your fun argument is not an argument and by citing it, you lost the argument.

We play for fun yes but that does not mean system can be adjusted and it being fun its not an argument as to why we should not tweak them.

bloodi wrote: Well, the thing is your can continue this argument for like everything in the game.

Lets say rank 40 needed 40 years of your life to attain it, would that be bad since you know, you play for fun?

Or maybe lets put all gear behind seniority barriers, you cannot get devastator unless you have 1 year ingame clocked, who cares right? Because you play for fun not for that gear.

Thats why your fun argument is not an argument and by citing it, you lost the argument.

We play for fun yes but that does not mean system can be adjusted and it being fun its not an argument as to why we should not tweak them.

Do you remember how long it took for people to reach rr80 back on the retail servers? Might as well have been 40 years for a lot of them.

And the system isn't going to be adjusted before T4, and after T4 is released a lot of these complaints are going to be completely irrelevant. You'll get to chase your dragon again, don't worry.

I'm sorry you think that saying a game is supposed to be fun means you lost an argument, btw. I really am.

magicthighs wrote: Do you remember how long it took for people to reach rr80 back on the retail servers? Might as well have been 40 years for a lot of them.

There was 1 few months after release, maining oils was a great thing back then.

However, i fail to see what does this have to do with anything

magicthighs wrote:And the system isn't going to be adjusted before T4, and after T4 is released a lot of these complaints are going to be completely irrelevant. You'll get to chase your dragon again, don't worry.

And we cannot talk about it since it triggers you or something? Its not about chasing any dragon, he is just making a point that Orvr is a much better source of Renown than scs, is that bad?

magicthighs wrote:I'm sorry you think that saying a game is supposed to be fun means you lost an argument, btw. I really am.

Not as much as i am for you not understand that "is about fun" is not an argument when talking about adjusting income and gains from a system.

You can pick your high horse and try to look down on me all you want, is still not an argument by any measure.

bloodi wrote: However, i fail to see what does this have to do with anything

You asked if it would be bad if getting to r40 would take 40 years. Adjusting for hyperbolic inflation, I answered your question.

And we cannot talk about it since it triggers you or something?

You can talk all you want

Its not about chasing any dragon, he is just making a point that Orvr is a much better source of Renown than scs, is that bad?

It's supposed to be a better source of renown.

Not as much as i am for you not understand that "is about fun" is not an argument when talking about adjusting income and gains from a system.

It is when we're talking about the current situation, actually. People are r35, but there are no T4 sc weapons, sets, or orvr sets yet. That means there's no dragon to chase. If you don't want to play scenarios just for the fun of it, I suggest you find something else to do for now, because it's not going to change until T4 is released.

You can pick your high horse and try to look down on me all you want, is still not an argument by any measure.

Just saying "it's not an argument" is not an argument either.

Let me rephrase that. It's an entirely optional set with little to no endgame viability.

Yes, a t3 set will be useless in endgame. Are you surprised? Are you surprised that, with these artificial rank caps for the tiers at the moment, the sets aren't that great? Do you think something should be done about it now, only to have to revert it again once T4 is released and the rank caps go back to normal?

I did not specifically mention that I am talking about our current endgame but I thought that was obvious. 2H tanks are honestly better off taking Devastator for the increased parry. DPS WP should go heal, same with Shaman. There is an argument to be made for RP/Zel but that is beside the point

If you can either grind Scenarios for ~8 hours or make a quest that takes 30-60 minutes for the exact same outcome, why would anyone in their right mind do Scenarios?

I dunno. Because they think it's fun?

The point is that it's not a **** carrot if you can get it in 30 minutes.

Since we are talking about weapons, I don't think that applies.

You were talking about boundless gear, didn't say you just meant the weapons. And if you're only talking about the weapons, again, what do you expect? A purple r35 weapon is better than a blue r26 one. The current situation with changed rank caps for T3 is not normal, and won't be the case in the future, so it shouldn't be grounds for any changes.

Ofc the weapons, boundless armor does not hold up to Devastator/Duelist. Also, the Scenario weapon is R29. And even in T4 Scenario weapons won't be the best weapons available afaik.

I think you're so focused on carrots you forget that games are supposed to be something you play for fun.

I hate AoEing doorways for 2 hours. It's fine if other people see any fun in that, I don't care. You know what is not fun? Getting outgeared by those people because they AoEd the door for a week while you played Scenarios for a month. I don't want a stupid carrot, Torq brought that up. All I want is to be compensated with Renown for the time I spend in Scenarios, that is not an unreasonable request. I also didn't see a single decent response for why a higher renown gain in Scenarios is bad, as long as it does not surpass oRvR. Warhammer PvP is about progression. Not progressing is not fun. Some people prefer oRvR, some prefer Scenarios. Why hold them to a double standard in terms of renown gain?

You want people to focus on oRvR? City sieges with Sov gear, Keeps with Lootbags to get geared. Those systems will be in place when T4 is coming. Let's not ignore that a solid 70% of all players do oRvR instead of Scenarios already.

I personally think renown gain in orvr could be taken down a notch, yes. I don't think renown gain in scs should be raised, and I think renown gain in scs should be lower than in orvr.

I would be fine if I would only get 50% of what people get in oRvR. That can't possibly too much to ask for? My estimates are that we get roughly 15-25% of what we do in oRvR

magicthighs wrote:You asked if it would be bad if getting to r40 would take 40 years. Adjusting for hyperbolic inflation, I answered your question.

No, you implied that already happened, it never did, at all, furthermore, the point of the hyperbole was that "who cares is about fun" can be applied for 2 week, 2 years, 40 years or 235 eons, its always fun so why not leave the characters ingame on your will for your grandchildren to continue playing and someday get the gear? It will be fun!

magicthighs wrote:It's supposed to be a better source of renown.

Yes, however he is arguing the ratios are off. By a lot.

magicthighs wrote:t is when we're talking about the current situation, actually. People are r35, but there are no T4 sc weapons, sets, or orvr sets yet. That means there's no dragon to chase. If you don't want to play scenarios just for the fun of it, I suggest you find something else to do for now, because it's not going to change until T4 is released.

Again, you keep talking about carrots, dragons and fun and its quite irrelevant, the point he argues is that in the place he has fun, the renown income is much lower than in orvr.

He never talks about how fun rr is to get or carrots or whatever acid you are on today, i dont know why you insist on bringing it up every time.

He plays in scs because its fun and he thinks the RR gain is too low for them, end of the story.

magicthighs wrote:Just saying "it's not an argument" is not an argument either.

Oh we can get academical if you want, here is an article why "fun" is not an argument

http://www.learntocounter.com/i-play-fo ... deo-games/

magicthighs wrote:

bloodi wrote:Ah yes the "You are supposed to play for fun" argument.

That pretty much means you lost the argument.

Great, I'll continue to play because I enjoy playing then, while you chase after carrots you don't like.

I also play for fun, but progression (means gaining renown and better gear) is also nice. Thats why you should reduce renown gain. today our guild-leader told me, he gained almost 7 renown-ranks (19-27) in one hour oRvR. That´s too much.

I don´´t know if you want to balance the renown gain that way that one player can get 10 toons or 3 toons to rr80 in an approviate amount of time, but I hope for the latter.

If you lower the amount of renown gain in oRvR much more than in scenarios (or let it stay the same in scenarios), you would "buff" scenarios and make everyone happy

bloodi wrote:

magicthighs wrote: Do you remember how long it took for people to reach rr80 back on the retail servers? Might as well have been 40 years for a lot of them.

There was 1 few months after release, maining oils was a great thing back then.

It was about 4 months and it is a very bad example:
Slototh - first Renown Rank 80 player
Ding RR80

Those of you with a mathematical bent, go and calculate that in terms of days since the game has been released. Out of the possible 126 days this game has been released, since 18 September 2008 he has played 59 of them. Solid. Roughly speaking that translates into 11 hours per day every day.

And this is neither an example for the average premade nor the average pug player. Virtually every player who even only played one char every day took way longer, not even speaking of people with alts.
11 hours excessive renown farming in RoR every day is not what most people want to do/can do.

I saw well known premade players who only played their main character reaching the required renown rank for warlord gear after 1.5 - 2 years.
Again: Maybe some individuals reached it earlier, but that doesn't mean anything.
With the same argumentation i could say that some players took 4 years for RR80 because of altoholism or they logged only once per week.

The high speed leveling past the various sets (conqueror, invader, warlord, etc.) in the later years was very bad game design.

Luth wrote:It was about 4 months and it is a very bad example:

Its even worse because if i remember correctly, he quit the game the moment he dinged 80.

And again, my point is just that "its supposed to be fun" is not an argument to justify the lenght of any kind of grind.

Because fun is too relative and has become a buzzword in mmos.

The amount of terrible players that shield themselves with it its astounding, they even created a whole Mmo for them, they call it Guild Wars 2 i believe.

Main focus should be orvr as it always has been you premade heroes can enjoy farming pugs in scenarios for scraps.