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Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs
Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:30 am
by Ysaran
Minipuce wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:40 am
I am the archmage who did the tests with Groumf (Grimbur)
Just know that we did many tests and not just 1 or 2 skills.
We did tests with 9 sec dot (radiant gaze) + 15 sec dot (law of conductivity) + 24 sec dot (transfer force).
The mitigation was divided by around 3, 5 and 8, proportionnaly (24 sec dot is less mitigated than 9 sec dot).
We also made tests with instant DD (storm of chronos) + 1 sec cast DD (fury of asuryan) + 2 sec cast DD (path of asuryan).
We also made tests with the canalised skill (path of asuryan) which is, btw, mitigated like a DD.
All those with different toughness and intelligence.
We also made tests with physical dots and DD with a witch hunter and the IB hitting on the archmage using moral to bypass the armor.
Please, give some credibility to our tests. Grimbur did a good summary of the result of ALL those tests.
We were just asking if it was a bug or not.
If it is a real policy from the devs to make dots non mitigated by the toughness (because it can be dispelled or another reason), ok so be it. And tanks will invest in wounds instead of toughness.
BUT understand what it means : the toughness is the primary stat for all the tanks. It is the one that up at every level. And the dev made it totally useless against most of the damages (only usefull gainst DD).
What would be the reaction if they dit the same with ballistic skill, intelligence or force ?
Minipuce, 86 RP
Minilune, 81 AM
Minibulle, 65 WP
DAMMAZ KRON !
i dont know if it's a bug but game work this way at least since one year (the moment when i joined) and all what you wrote isn't new to me. Searching on forum you can find many discussuion about this specific argument.
i see many flaw in your reasoning:
1)only tank rely on thoughnes
2)toughness is tank main stat
3)toughness is useless
lets start with 1), healer too reach (by gear) reach decent amount of toughness (300 or 400 in top gear) and tanky dps too used toughness too.
about 2) i would say that it just have no sense to talk about "main stat", every class have 3 or more parameter to optimize, to think that to perform well is enough to stack one stat is just naive. tank need to find the right balance between toughness, armor, wounds, parry, dodge, disrupt and block (7 parameters). there is no "main" between these, if you just stack one of these you will be not be able to endure some kind of damage to some kind of damage.
regarding 3) i think that toughness isn't useless, you just need to figure out what is a wothy amount. toughness help prevent direct damage, critical hits and magic damage (since resists are capped at 40% of damage reduction).
p.s. just to let you understand what nonsense is to talk about "main stat", tell me: what is healers "main stat"?
Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs
Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:48 am
by orillah
To Yasaran, its really easy, healers main stat - willpower.
P.S. one of the easiest way to be 50% sure what mainstat for your class is - check what "main stat" boost one of your tactics, they called discipline for healers, rugged for tanks, brute force for melee, masterful aim for ranged, endless knowledge for casters.
Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs
Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:30 am
by Bozzax
Minipuce wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:40 am
I am the archmage who did the tests with Groumf (Grimbur)
Just know that we did many tests and not just 1 or 2 skills.
We did tests with 9 sec dot (radiant gaze) + 15 sec dot (law of conductivity) + 24 sec dot (transfer force).
The mitigation was divided by around 3, 5 and 8, proportionnaly (24 sec dot is less mitigated than 9 s
This to me looks like tou dont gain the stat coff multiplier. Ie the higher stat coff dots are less reduced (what you see in logs).
What is causing this would be main attacking stat being mult by stat coff while def stat (tou) is not.
(long dots=higher stat coff=less % total mit by flat vale tou)
Testing if same apply to DD would be good (1s cast vs 3s cast). Dots only or both DD and dot formulae
Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs
Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:33 am
by Minipuce
Ysaran wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:30 am
i dont know if it's a bug but game work this way at least since one year (the moment when i joined) and all what you wrote isn't new to me. Searching on forum you can find many discussuion about this specific argument.
i see many flaw in your reasoning:
1)only tank rely on thoughnes
2)toughness is tank main stat
3)toughness is useless
lets start with 1), healer too reach (by gear) reach decent amount of toughness (300 or 400 in top gear) and tanky dps too used toughness too.
about 2) i would say that it just have no sense to talk about "main stat", every class have 3 or more parameter to optimize, to think that to perform well is enough to stack one stat is just naive. tank need to find the right balance between toughness, armor, wounds, parry, dodge, disrupt and block (7 parameters). there is no "main" between these, if you just stack one of these you will be not be able to endure some kind of damage to some kind of damage.
regarding 3) i think that toughness isn't useless, you just need to figure out what is a wothy amount. toughness help prevent direct damage, critical hits and magic damage (since resists are capped at 40% of damage reduction).
p.s. just to let you understand what nonsense is to talk about "main stat", tell me: what is healers "main stat"?
@Yasaran
For healers, main stat is willpower.
And reaching 400 toughness for a healer is nonsense.
Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs
Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:55 am
by Bozzax
Had over 1k tou om dok on live
Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs
Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:00 am
by Minipuce
on this server
Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs
Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:03 am
by Ysaran
@Minipuce
i have 200 toughness on my rr33 WP and 320 with my rr40 Shammy, with no toughness talis in them. point is: healer's gear give you toughness, and that's a fact.
to think that to be performant you need to stack only one stat is ridiculous. anyway i will keep an eye on this discussion, i will find a lot of prey/ppl to not have in party
Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs
Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:04 am
by Bozzax
If I recall correctly... 5-600 on my lowbie zele and shmy is even easier (on this server
)
Ps. Dok is dps so I havent test that
Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs
Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:25 am
by hogun
Ysaran wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:03 am
@Minipuce
i have 200 toughness on my rr33 WP and 320 with my rr40 Shammy, with no toughness talis in them. point is: healer's gear give you toughness, and that's a fact.
to think that to be performant you need to stack only one stat is ridiculous. anyway i will keep an eye on this discussion, i will find a lot of prey/ppl to not have in party
rr 40 or lvl 33 are prey for everyone, I wonder what you can find as prey
otherwise at a small level it is advisable to maximize its main stat:) and the dps will always try to do so.
Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs
Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:38 am
by Ysaran
hogun wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:25 am
Ysaran wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:03 am
@Minipuce
i have 200 toughness on my rr33 WP and 320 with my rr40 Shammy, with no toughness talis in them. point is: healer's gear give you toughness, and that's a fact.
to think that to be performant you need to stack only one stat is ridiculous. anyway i will keep an eye on this discussion, i will find a lot of prey/ppl to not have in party
rr 40 or lvl 33 are prey for everyone, I wonder what you can find as prey
otherwise at a small level it is advisable to maximize its main stat:) and the dps will always try to do so.
You are right, I mistyped. My WP is r33 and my Shammy is r40 and rr57. But tbh I will hunt with my rr81 full Choppa with BiS gear