Return of Reckoning

WarHawK wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:52 pm

wargrimnir wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:15 am
We asked for suggestions, people gave them, we used them to put together changes. These are the changes. If they're bad we will find out in the long run, over weeks and months, and we will make adjustments. Not on patch day with the sort of feedback that we were absolutely expecting regarding the reduced range of their skirmish spec or the reduced aoe capability to conform with our goals for the spec. Would it be nice to have 100' range on everything and retain spammable AOE? Sure it would. It sure would be nice. Does that make sense for the spec or a semblance of balance for the class where risk/reward needs to be considered? Nah. It doesn't. SH has a lot of survival tools if someone closes the gap on them. If they're going to run skirmish, it should come at some risk. It wouldn't make sense to load them up with any kind of mobile killing power that the class was missing while keeping all the distance that makes them incredibly safe to play.

which QA squig asked for such changes? I don't know anyone ... Everyone just wanted a minor buff.

Have you ever played a squig? I can hardly imagine.

First the senseless removal of the Renown Abilities, pet range nerf and now also the removal of the range tactic for a kite class.

AA tactic in the QA path, m3 makes more dmg than the skillable m4, removing the armor buff from the pet. that makes absolutely no sense.

Neverever wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:11 pm

Grunbag wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:29 pm

Oglaf wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:24 pm

That I'll agree with. Both seem to have been an admission by Mythic that maybe pets aren't too stellar, lol.

Without proper feedback about their survivability with new pet heal tactic we can’t really fix them

Here is what you are missing. With the limited tactic slot squig herder already faces as a problem due to the fact that it needs 2 slots to reach the stat cap in the first place, I don't think anyone would be putting that tactic into use.

Neverever wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:11 pm

Grunbag wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:29 pm

Oglaf wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:24 pm

That I'll agree with. Both seem to have been an admission by Mythic that maybe pets aren't too stellar, lol.

Without proper feedback about their survivability with new pet heal tactic we can’t really fix them

Here is what you are missing. With the limited tactic slot squig herder already faces as a problem due to the fact that it needs 2 slots to reach the stat cap in the first place, I don't think anyone would be putting that tactic into use.

Oglaf wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:38 pm

Neverever wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:11 pm

Grunbag wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:29 pm

Without proper feedback about their survivability with new pet heal tactic we can’t really fix them

Here is what you are missing. With the limited tactic slot squig herder already faces as a problem due to the fact that it needs 2 slots to reach the stat cap in the first place, I don't think anyone would be putting that tactic into use.

Bingo. Fixing it with a tactic is a poor, poor idea. Terrible actually.

Tactic slots are the most limited resources available to a character and should never be used as a crutch to prop their failings.

As I said previously, you're forcing this class to play with only 3 Tactic slots this way - and that's horrendous.

adamska2 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:52 am Skori you say Without proper feedback about their survivability with new pet heal tactic we can’t really fix them

the Feedback is Easy for I Got Lots is way more safer than the new one.
Issue with the new one if somebody want to focus your pet he will die anyway.

Jurki wrote: ↑Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:00 am Update: After testing myself and watching some twitch stuff trying to handle the SH (which didnt work even tho i usually enjoy to see people try to play sh): most of the changes the developers made are, and now attention pls folks, not compatible with the following. To keep the changes now with increasing range to 100ft would be too much. They would make the SH too powerful and i understand that. So there needs to be additional adjustments, listen up:

-increase the base range of quick shooting abilities to 98ft-100ft (was already my proposal - and is crucial for the overall performance of the class - as you might already know now)

-change SWDW: give it a SLIGHT armor pen. increase (so armored targets are better dealt with) --> that way it also opens up the opportunity to use other tactics as well (like pierce defence in combination with run away, or grp supporting tactics), it widens the spectrum of viable tactic opportunities. Maybe the crit increase for QS abilties as it is right now would work too. Suggestions anyone?

-revert the range knockdown ability: was an ambitious change but pls no range knockdown (we already have a good toolkit besides that), but the old ini debuff of the QS path allowing casting while running (movement is the class key - a range of 100ft is mandatory - 100ft is by the way not long range - melees and rdps already have toolkits to close the gaps or to fight on that range (regarding rpds) effectively with a much greater dmg output than the SH). A 100ft range, i can only repeat, is a necessary range to give the player the chance to react on his surroundings - that was the primary defensive tool the class had since its natural vulnerability.

-keep the squig frenzy cd on 1 min (that way its better integrated into the fights - giving a temporary dmg boost)

-I am undecided regarding the squig depending temporary effects of Squig Frenzy as it is right now

-keep the new tastes like chicken effect

-change finish em off back to the big shooting path to also support the viability of that stationary path

-squig beast back to m3 (that way we have a slight dmg burst potential - combined with armor pen. of SWDW (in my idea) and the squig frenzy its quite decent without melting enemies in under 2 secs (terrain is also a big problem causing the squig to not function well) and supports the integrating of rSH into 6 man grps --> it gives the opportunity to have m1 (concealment) and m3 (squig beast) and to decide in the context of the situation if a defensive or aggressive approach is more fitting --> improves survivability of an otherwise fragile class (as it should be).

-change Shoot thru Ya back to base ability: for the guys who wanted a more viable opportunity to make AE with the QS SH I have to make this statement: This path is not meant for your average WB AE gameplay. If you want to support your warband as a QS rSH then talk to your team and support the melees (like WE death squads for example) to get into the backline and kill the healers. Also you still can do decent dmg when using Expert Skirmisher and Explosive Shots (M3). You wouldnt do that much dmg as a choppa, mSH or Sorcs for example, but you can still contribute. One path shouldnt do anything at a good level (thats something i can agree on).

-Red Dot arrer: interesting design, I dont quite know if this ability should stay as it is, good thing is that its an additional instant supporting dmg output that could be the difference in the fight but it could be too strong in combination with the stuff i proposed. the interrupting effect is nice too but maybe too strong in the fight - the melee variant might be the smarter approach after all because that includes a risky approach to for example push up to the healer and interrupt a res or heal while exposing one self to other dps to react on that.

-the reduced aoe dmg on the pets is already a good step supporting more survivability for for example the spiked squig which still has less range than the gas squig. the reduced range, introduced with an update some time ago now already caused problems with kiting since essential abilities like Drop That! didnt work on ranges it would disarm before. Increasing the range of Spiked Squig would support a fluid and mobile playstile - which includes a decent range of the player as well (not 65 feet but 100ft) as a mandatory requirement to actually work.

I want to underline: The rSH didnt need hard and ever changing adjustments (tho he might after this patch). Only a few tweaks as I, atleast I hope so, could show with that post.

Grunbag wrote: ↑Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:06 am

Jurki wrote: ↑Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:00 am Update: After testing myself and watching some twitch stuff trying to handle the SH (which didnt work even tho i usually enjoy to see people try to play sh): most of the changes the developers made are, and now attention pls folks, not compatible with the following. To keep the changes now with increasing range to 100ft would be too much. They would make the SH too powerful and i understand that. So there needs to be additional adjustments, listen up:

-increase the base range of quick shooting abilities to 98ft-100ft (was already my proposal - and is crucial for the overall performance of the class - as you might already know now)

-change SWDW: give it a SLIGHT armor pen. increase (so armored targets are better dealt with) --> that way it also opens up the opportunity to use other tactics as well (like pierce defence in combination with run away, or grp supporting tactics), it widens the spectrum of viable tactic opportunities. Maybe the crit increase for QS abilties as it is right now would work too. Suggestions anyone?

-revert the range knockdown ability: was an ambitious change but pls no range knockdown (we already have a good toolkit besides that), but the old ini debuff of the QS path allowing casting while running (movement is the class key - a range of 100ft is mandatory - 100ft is by the way not long range - melees and rdps already have toolkits to close the gaps or to fight on that range (regarding rpds) effectively with a much greater dmg output than the SH). A 100ft range, i can only repeat, is a necessary range to give the player the chance to react on his surroundings - that was the primary defensive tool the class had since its natural vulnerability.

-keep the squig frenzy cd on 1 min (that way its better integrated into the fights - giving a temporary dmg boost)

-I am undecided regarding the squig depending temporary effects of Squig Frenzy as it is right now

-keep the new tastes like chicken effect

-change finish em off back to the big shooting path to also support the viability of that stationary path

-squig beast back to m3 (that way we have a slight dmg burst potential - combined with armor pen. of SWDW (in my idea) and the squig frenzy its quite decent without melting enemies in under 2 secs (terrain is also a big problem causing the squig to not function well) and supports the integrating of rSH into 6 man grps --> it gives the opportunity to have m1 (concealment) and m3 (squig beast) and to decide in the context of the situation if a defensive or aggressive approach is more fitting --> improves survivability of an otherwise fragile class (as it should be).

-change Shoot thru Ya back to base ability: for the guys who wanted a more viable opportunity to make AE with the QS SH I have to make this statement: This path is not meant for your average WB AE gameplay. If you want to support your warband as a QS rSH then talk to your team and support the melees (like WE death squads for example) to get into the backline and kill the healers. Also you still can do decent dmg when using Expert Skirmisher and Explosive Shots (M3). You wouldnt do that much dmg as a choppa, mSH or Sorcs for example, but you can still contribute. One path shouldnt do anything at a good level (thats something i can agree on).

-Red Dot arrer: interesting design, I dont quite know if this ability should stay as it is, good thing is that its an additional instant supporting dmg output that could be the difference in the fight but it could be too strong in combination with the stuff i proposed. the interrupting effect is nice too but maybe too strong in the fight - the melee variant might be the smarter approach after all because that includes a risky approach to for example push up to the healer and interrupt a res or heal while exposing one self to other dps to react on that.

-the reduced aoe dmg on the pets is already a good step supporting more survivability for for example the spiked squig which still has less range than the gas squig. the reduced range, introduced with an update some time ago now already caused problems with kiting since essential abilities like Drop That! didnt work on ranges it would disarm before. Increasing the range of Spiked Squig would support a fluid and mobile playstile - which includes a decent range of the player as well (not 65 feet but 100ft) as a mandatory requirement to actually work.

I want to underline: The rSH didnt need hard and ever changing adjustments (tho he might after this patch). Only a few tweaks as I, atleast I hope so, could show with that post.

You probably haven’t noticed that sharpened arrer tactic already increase the armor pen of all your ranged abilities , so no need to add armor pen to SWDW.

We will have a better view on the change the next few days / week . But one thing is sure we won’t add STY back to core . We stated that aoe will be on bouncing and stat in bouncing.