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Re: do we have a balance problem?
Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:18 pm
by junkxjunk
What KOTBS nerfs affected cities? DId yours run the +dmg taken tactic?
Re: do we have a balance problem?
Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:18 pm
by Aurandilaz
agemennon675 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:09 pm
Rest of the order careers should just not play the end game content than ? Well too bad they picked the wrong class.
if your goal is to punch through wall of enemy lines, having an artillery barrage shred all enemies in sight to nothing is a valid option to win
or you could be trying to win by throwing rocks and bring whatever classes "for fun"
Order INTERrealm balance has been an issue past decade, nothing new. Destro has less "superstars" and more even balance of power between their AOE classes with Choppa underperforming when compared to AoE slayer and Sorc AoE also underperforming vs BW AoE, but this in turn allows more equal approach when comparing INTERrealm options for warband, which then allow even meatball + magus to compete. Mara is arguably better than WL, but the other HAD pounce burst option less than 2 months ago, but whatever, easier to stop playing WL than expect devs to give back pounce dmg.
Re: do we have a balance problem?
Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:20 pm
by Gurf
They will tell you it is a pug vs premade problem. Not sure why Destro have more premades on no matter what time of day it is though, maybe they have more during EU Prime but don't see why they would at other times.
The reality is that City has always favoured Destro because it favours melee, especially in third stage, as Destro have one extra melee character to pick from with MSH also being very strong at the moment putting out massive damage in heavy armour and all the cc in the world. Mara's running around with 70%+ crit etc
Having two aoe cooldown decreasers makes a big difference seeing as all the most powerful skills have long cooldowns, for example both AM and SW need a SM with Whispering Wind in party to have any chance of doing half decent performance in City. SM is the least played tank on Order meaning many parties have none, while Destro can almost guarantee either a Choppa or BO in each party, often both.
Destro have aoe heal debuff with Windblock, so their morale drops are effectively twice as hard to survive and heal through as Order's.
Shammy has twice the Survivability in City than AM, so Destro has a much easier time doing instant res which is one of the most important skills in tight fights.
Despite all that above they will say it is fine "Because Rampage"
Re: do we have a balance problem?
Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:26 pm
by Sundowner
agemennon675 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:09 pm
Aurandilaz wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:05 pm
pls stop pushing cities in the middle of the day, most of us EU organized Order player cannot play those hours, kthxbai
anyway, Order retains the strongest AOE mdps in the game, Slayer (mine is rr81)
anyway, Order retains the strongest AOE magic bomb class in the game, Brightwizard (mine is rr83)
anyway, Order retains the best warband tank in the game, Aurabot aka kotb (mine is 67 or something, so boring)
anyway, Order has probably the best healer duo synergy in the game between WP (rr48, booring) and RP (too short, too stuntie to be playable IMO), from both being able to pump AP, both having outgoing heal modifiers, both being tanky as **** and forming the backbone of any good warband
(I love my AM but the amazing fashion of wearing a nightgown does not make much sense on the frontlines)
(I love my WH but lets not kid ourselves, it's not really worth gearing up lol)
WL (mine is rr84) and SM (rr73) are also both excellent picks, allowing more versatility and various other debuffs (spintoWinAOEarmor debuff lol or hdbuff) and SM is probably the only tank in game with 5 different interrupt options and a goddamn pounce.
so, a decently led warband consisting of all the amazing careers above will cause lethal pain for 9/10 destro warbands without the need to even wait for a morale dump because the aggregated dmg from high renown high gear level competent dps players is damn high, that 1/10 in surviving because they have too many healers rezzing nonstop in order to force a win conditions, thx for the morale nerfs I guess.
Order has all the cards, all the buffs they need to win, all the debuffs they need to win. Destro no longer has some dps zealot advantage, no morale bomb advantage, GTDC is a joke a compared to its past versions, Mara no longer does those 2k Demolition crits but now is nerfed down to WL AOE output levels.
You have all the tools, you just choose to play bad.
t. xrealmer (84chop, 83sorc, 81WE, +whatelse)
Rest of the order careers should just not play the end game content than ? Well too bad they picked the wrong class.
Citing 4-5 classes and saying that order can win is a very good argument according. Like if you stack 4 kobs, 4 sm, slayers/wl and 1 bw, and WPs and maybe 1 AM, sure u will win. But destro has more viable classes for city, hence more variety, hence more options for good lineup. maybe we should encourage to make some order classes viable for city (same with destro, all classes should be optimized for endgame content) and don't parrot play slayer to win nonsensical approach to balancing
Re: do we have a balance problem?
Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:27 pm
by Ysaran
Sundowner wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:51 pm
Ysaran wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:43 pm
I didn't read all the others posts (why bother for such topic...), but I would like to point out that the population situation was kinda the same 2 month ago, but in favor of Order. At least during EU prime time. Ppl complained and the answere was: Get organized. Actually I kinda agree, Destru was unorganized 2 month ago, and so it seems Order now. No balance issues here, just player behavior issues
Ignore all posts and attribute everything to player behaviour is a way to go man
You don't want listen to me? fine. I'm no one. But listen to Aurandilaz. He is one of the few experienced player that actually bother joining the shitshow that the forum is. Stick around the forum for some time and you will understand that the words of some ppl are more reliable than other.
Not all the opinions have the same weight.
P.S. I agree that Order have some internal balance issues (e.g slayer outpower every other Order mdps)
Re: do we have a balance problem?
Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:30 pm
by knick
Goermsi wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:39 pm
I was active in 2 topics last time.
One where destro ask for royals while no city pop (and dev team brings the exact same arguments why this suggestion makes no sense) and one where I argued against a WL buff because compare WL to mara makes no sense. Pls tell us where I'm so super hostile.
A 100% win ratio is not acceptable. Not on long term and not on short stance's.
I didn't even remember when the last time UV was to EU Prime time. Do you?
Funny fact.
We have a post about fort win/loss in the forum followed by several fort changes. Most forts get lost not because order was better than destro. Its just the mechanic of pushing 100 player trough a small door problem. Changes where made.
But while fort changes where okay a 100% lose streak in city is fine and just a "time" or "GEt goOd pRObLeM"
Re: do we have a balance problem?
Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:31 pm
by Sofong
destro also stacking chopper chosen bo dok mara. we, bg, rsh will always have a hard time finding wb. these order4ever players pfcos wouldnt know.
Re: do we have a balance problem?
Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:31 pm
by Grognir
I have played several times with order warbands which were able to compete and even win against some of the most famous destro wb, so my feeling is that there is not a real class unbalance issue between sides.
There are just more skilled and good players, and also leads, on destro side, that's a fact. And I am a 100% order player btw.
In addition population is clearly in favor of destro for the moment... we just have to bite our tongues and wait for the situation to be inverted!
Re: do we have a balance problem?
Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:33 pm
by Gurf
The Devs made changes to Forts because they were too favoured by ranged, now the melee can port up to the third floor and you have to defend stairs/upper floor as well as the other doors on push. Destro now take Forts on a regular basis.
How about doing something to City instances or at least stages in City which favours ranged classes instead of melee? May help the balance a bit
Re: do we have a balance problem?
Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:42 pm
by Sundowner
Ysaran wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:27 pm
Sundowner wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:51 pm
Ysaran wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:43 pm
I didn't read all the others posts (why bother for such topic...), but I would like to point out that the population situation was kinda the same 2 month ago, but in favor of Order. At least during EU prime time. Ppl complained and the answere was: Get organized. Actually I kinda agree, Destru was unorganized 2 month ago, and so it seems Order now. No balance issues here, just player behavior issues
Ignore all posts and attribute everything to player behaviour is a way to go man
You don't want listen to me? fine. I'm no one. But listen to Aurandilaz. He is one of the few experienced player that actually bother joining the shitshow that the forum is. Stick around the forum for some time and you will understand that the words of some ppl are more reliable than other.
Not all the opinions have the same weight.
and I have already answered to him, yeah forum is very biased and huge part of people have agendas to make their classes and/or faction stronger (probably they attributed their looses and deaths to overall balance and biased devs, which in most cases is not true), but argument that order has kotbs/slayer/wp and play them to win is flawed at its core, because of 2 problems: city is endgame content and u can get the best armor (and in future weapons) from it, hence all classes should be optimized to participate in it. and second, because order has only several overtuned classes, yes, but destro has more good classes and henceforth can land more viable builds for city. It's like people do not want to play 4 classes on order, when kotbs and ib are very boring in comparison to chosen/bg, for example.
Overall I think the approach should be to optimize more classes for city (more on order, less on destro, but several destro classes could use tuning to). Same goes for forts (though I think overall system of the forts should be changed).