Return of Reckoning

So can my SM have his double spirit debuff back?

Aethilmar wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:25 pm So can my SM have his double spirit debuff back?

SM should get it back. SM should also get 25 % on hit to proc absorb bubble and aethyric armour that was small 5 % disrupt/ armour buff (500 something if i remember right and yes stacked with potion)
Redirected force add parry or block needed usable with 2h. Snare changed to 9 sec spirit dot.

Changing armour/resis debuffs to % based instead numbers would be interesting to try. Like 50 % armour debuff skill would still leave 800 or so for low armour, 1500 medium armour 2750 heavy armour.
Also changing/adding set piece bonuses and why not some skills with effects like - On Hit: 10% chance to reduce the next two heals on the target within 10 seconds by 400. On Being Hit: 10% chance to Heal yourself for 700 health over the next 5 seconds.

Stacking worked diff on live if you think about gear procs. Potion or armour skill buff/wpdok prayer stacked with 700/800 armour buff proc and imo this should work the same in ror. As well gear procs that steal stats also should stack with buff or potion.

Fenris78 wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:28 pm

billyk wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:05 am Destro has a bunch of such "hidden" advantages. It's just part of the RoR experience.

WE' with 2 skills (one base, one middle tree) for debuffing / buffing 100+ stats when WH doesnt have equivalence (yeah armor debuff will never worth mobility+burst of the WE)

LOL WH have a "i win button" 100% parade but it's ok

Rain of fire stacking (from lag ?) still not a problem ?

All you Destro apologists are missing the point - stacking benefits Sorc, Magus and Chosen, but if its broken and you benefit that's fine heh

Collision wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:45 pm "100% parade"

Can't say I've ever seen someone press that one.

Wh parade?

wonshot wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:08 pm

Fenris78 wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:46 pm So you agree getting -800 magic resistance should exist at all, and is desirable for a class hitting for 3k+ damage on single skill ?

Thats kinda why i made this topic, to hear how others view this. At times i feel Sorc and BW's timestamp on a fully supported target is lackluster because how it can be mitigated, but at the same time the pugstomping potential is just unmatched with onecomboing undergeared or unsupported, unaware players (orvr or normal scs)
I dont care too much about this playstyle myself and dont do it as my main activity, because i simply find it boring to do backloaded dmg and perfer to be upclose and personal with frontloaded.

if both classes get their tactics following the rule of stacking because its a tactic and it should stack with abilities, then fine i guess. I just found it very obvious when i started playing my sorc a week ago or so, than the dmg numbers were clearly not the dmg as BW. and it was not only down to "focus" or resist types, something else was going on. Hence why it got reported. And why we are talking about it now, i guess

Been in some talks with casters like hao, svarz, frozenover etc last couple of days. the general sentiment seem to be that you can pugstomp and outplay on BW and sorc is just in a better place because it doesnt have to face rsh

This seems to be mostly accurate. It is important to remember that BW's damage typing also does not line up as nicely with it's debuff if you compare it 1:1 with sorc, which would lead naturally to lower st timestamps. I personally think both classes should be changed to match the current sorc's functionality, although naturally this benefits the BW slightly less due to the above reason.

In regards to the question of balance; both classes have minimal tools (BW with the slight edge here) to survive any amount of focus on their own. Both BW and Sorc are meant to pump damage while being fragile (with one being slightly better aoe and the latter being slightly better st by design). "Their bursts are too high" is highly subjective. What arbitrary amount lower would it have to be for people complaining to be ok with it? The answer is always 'Until these classes stop killing me'. Being able to pop under-geared players does not mean a spec is broken. Should THE fragile glass cannon spec (for both sides) not be able to fill the niche? Do you want to know the easy silver bullet to never dying to a sorc timestamp again? Socket trivial blows.

Class Mirrors and Faction Bias/Tears aside, getting a statement from any of the fancy colored names on if this is working as intended would be great. That aside, its been a known issue in github for over 2 months so it might just be intentional or at least being ignored.

Also I second that idea that resist/armor debuffs being % based rather than a flat number. I feel like if this was implemented correctly and stacked properly it would be an improvement and it would remove those 'Zero Resists Kills" that were mentioned earlier

Grious wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 5:34 pm Class Mirrors and Faction Bias/Tears aside, getting a statement from any of the fancy colored names on if this is working as intended would be great. That aside, its been a known issue in github for over 2 months so it might just be intentional or at least being ignored.

Also I second that idea that resist/armor debuffs being % based rather than a flat number. I feel like if this was implemented correctly and stacked properly it would be an improvement and it would remove those 'Zero Resists Kills" that were mentioned earlier

Multiple issues to figure out with % based debuffs:

1. How do you scale them with lvls in the respective Mastery Tree
2. How do you scale items that give armor penetration/armor penetration reduction
3. Results in massive balance change for physical damage which will result in Devs having to re-balance literally all physical dmg output of all classes.


3.1 say 1k armor reduction: For 5k armor tank that does 7% mitigation difference, 2k armor healer 17% mitigation difference. Do we scale % to 17 or 7? or in-between?

->say we make it 20% armor reduction to match tank change: 5k armor tank goes to 4k, 2k armor healer goes to 1600
->now 2nd debuff, 20% -> 4k to 3200 & 1600 -> 1280
Healer now has 1280 armor more than with other system, that's 20% less dmg taken, tank stays roughly the same.

If we scale it to match better the healer in other system we get 50% reduction, tank 5000->2250->1250 (=paper), healer 2000->1000->500

I hope you can see how it's not easy.

_________________

Regarding resists: Remember, only Sorc/(BW) have a single-target stacking debuff, you would change the entire system with big balance implications for that one debuff.


In the following I'm doing the destro perspective, these same situations would exist with Magus=Engi, Chosen=KOTBS.
If we do 50% in order to match what strong resi debuffs do on buffed targets and ~23% for Chosen/Kotbs (weak debuff) we get VERY ROUGHLY

Buffed target: Sorc+aoe Magus 700->350->175 (10%) // Sorc+Chosen 700->350->269 (16%)
Unbuffed target: Sorc+aoe Magus 450->225->112 (6%) // Sorc+Chosen 450->225->173 (10%)

compared to right now

Buffed target: Sorc+aoe Magus 700->350->0 (0%) // Sorc+Chosen 700->350->190 (11%)
Unbuffed target: Sorc+aoe Magus 450->100->0 (0%) // Sorc+Chosen 450->100->0 (0%)

Competetively, ST Sorc + AoE Magus doesn't happen outside of some rare and weird city grps, so it's hardly an issue, so as you can sort of see, "Zero Resist Kills" even with current system aren't really a thing except vs unbuffed opponents and resi buffs are super important regardless.


So what do we care about?

Ranked: 5% dmg difference
Solo(=unbuffed) ppl getting ganked by Sorc+Chosen: 10% difference... but those are dead either way... Sorc/BW are simply pug stomp monsters due to their mechanics.


TLDR: Reworking debuffs into % instead of flat is way too much work for little to no gain.