Return of Reckoning

Wargrimnir could you please take a look at my post 363 and have a look at my suggestions and give me some honest feedback about how plausible they are if you could do that , thanks.

wonshot wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:55 pm

Foofmonger wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:29 pm This thread is now just people repeating arguments from 20 pages ago and Spell and Warg having some kind of weird discussion about how they don't like each other.

And that is probably why nothing will change as, the community, cant even put a finger on why we have this situation. Yes we can keep mentioning that order has too much rdps, but there are little to no solutions that the community can come up with, that would help solve the issue. So no big suprice if we cant give the devs solutions and they cant think of anything either, then nothing will come of it.

Now does it suck, absolutely. But taking turns to scream about how its either mara aoe knockdown, too many engineers, choppapull or whatever else we all try to pinpoint for the rot of all evil.
I tried with the 50pages of "why is order as it is" topic and even there no clear conclusion came of it, so it might be just a multitude of things making order (as a whole) just "harder"to perform on, unless you are TUP.

For the sake of transparency, my winrate is also sub 50% but i stopped caring months ago and just been attending for the meme of collecting the sets and trying to help guildies get some gear. City is too harsh to plan for when you build a 2times a week orvr guild, people just simply cant attend on a small privateserver. And its not like there is much to lean on from the rest of the realm.

About a week ago, we tried queuing with 12 lbl. We had one aoe bw, one dps wp and one full singletarget wl. And just went with it. The order pugfill got linked a discord link and not a single one wanted to join. Ended up loosing the instance with 6 order damagedealers vs destro's 6. Yet they had a pnp 12stack and WoM 6stack and that decited the instance as the AM got bored in stage3 and just kept running in solo.

There is no single solution, but there are obvious missing, weaker version or lesser functional abilities on Order side vs counterpart.

Motivation is also a huge factor of players caring. Is it a complete mystery after the Post-Morale nerf that Order/Destro were 50/50 in chance of winning the City Siege for about two weeks? Most Destro relied on Morale nerf to win, why it was changed by the Devs and Order started winning. Destro adapted and now run 3-4 Marauders in pre-mades for a good reason. Did once see a 5 Choppa build from FMJ but they're at another level of play and did put the chain double-triple pulling of tanks and letting them die in the air to abuse during that instance with them without GTDC giving immunity. Doing 1-2 cities a day, it's mostly about filling up w/ marauders now, do a closer look at that as a Dev and you can figure it out. Overtuned aoe dmg, aoe knockdown, other utility?

If tanks were fun to play and tanks knew healers would be there, they'd play more of them. Due to lack of healers, they start playing rDPS so they can at least do something from range.
Healers lacking due to less mDPS/Tanks and it's probably not fun just healing rDPS, so they join rDPS club or roll Destro and enjoy the synergy of tanks/healers being the meta why there are more Destro than Order. It's a trickling effect but there is a root cause of it that would take time to repair. I've heard plenty of theories, posted numbers of what Destro tanks can pull off to where I'm not gonna flood the post.

I had few friends come over and start playing here as Slayer or tanks in scenarios solo since hours would be different. They quit after level 20-30s because they said it's stupid to play without a premade due to no heals in scenarios and went back to their other game. They enjoyed level 1-15, but once they hit 16 and faced reality against level 35-39s in there, it wasn't fun anymore.

Aoe is meta and Destro have better aoe cleave even tanks have much better aoe cleave on Destro

wonshot wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:55 pm

Foofmonger wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:29 pm This thread is now just people repeating arguments from 20 pages ago and Spell and Warg having some kind of weird discussion about how they don't like each other.

And that is probably why nothing will change as, the community, cant even put a finger on why we have this situation. Yes we can keep mentioning that order has too much rdps, but there are little to no solutions that the community can come up with, that would help solve the issue. So no big suprice if we cant give the devs solutions and they cant think of anything either, then nothing will come of it.

Now does it suck, absolutely. But taking turns to scream about how its either mara aoe knockdown, too many engineers, choppapull or whatever else we all try to pinpoint for the rot of all evil.
I tried with the 50pages of "why is order as it is" topic and even there no clear conclusion came of it, so it might be just a multitude of things making order (as a whole) just "harder"to perform on, unless you are TUP.

For the sake of transparency, my winrate is also sub 50% but i stopped caring months ago and just been attending for the meme of collecting the sets and trying to help guildies get some gear. City is too harsh to plan for when you build a 2times a week orvr guild, people just simply cant attend on a small privateserver. And its not like there is much to lean on from the rest of the realm.

About a week ago, we tried queuing with 12 lbl. We had one aoe bw, one dps wp and one full singletarget wl. And just went with it. The order pugfill got linked a discord link and not a single one wanted to join. Ended up loosing the instance with 6 order damagedealers vs destro's 6. Yet they had a pnp 12stack and WoM 6stack and that decited the instance as the AM got bored in stage3 and just kept running in solo.

I pretty much disagree philosophically.

I believe the community CAN put a finger one why we have this situation. I believe in fact, we already have, in this very thread, and people are just not reading through the thread from the beginning and just adding their 2 cents in over and over like a broken record. That's why I said, "people are just repeating the same content from 20 pages ago".

To recap, and repost my last recap from 20 pages ago:

"Philosophically, I want a balanced game with 50% win rates. I am biased to destro, but I do understand and acknolwedge my own bias which helps me be more objective. I

I think there are a few major things that can help here, some of which would be for the devs and some of which would be for the players.

DEVS:
1. Underperforming classes could use buffs to be city viable.
2. End-game progression shouldn't be locked to just cities.

Players:
1. Can work on overall organization/alliances/guilds on the Order side. Seems fragmented and like it needs consolidation and more massive 10 guild alliances (as Destro does).
2. Can re-roll from underdesired classes into underplayed but desired classes. If 50% of the BWs and Engineers on Orders rerolled into tanks, Order would probably be in a much better state as far as class distribution.

I honestly would like to see all 4 of those things happen. It would be nice to have more balanced cities in terms of class viability, have options for progressing end-game without doing cities, have a more overall cohesive and organized Order realm, and have Order playing the correct class distribution that will net them more wins and not leave them with X amount of pugger cities that will lose their instances."

That's basically it. The thread effectively ended a while back, people just want to keep stoking the fuel of a dying fire. For what reason, I don't know.

Regardless, I'm leveling up my WL now so I can happily participate in more non-biased balance discussions. I'm not high enough level/have enough experience to speak to T4 balance yet, but I will be at some point. As usual, I'm fairly certain the reality falls somewhere between the two extreme biases that come from both sides. The only thing I can say for now is: There's no glaring major imbalances between the factions sub-level 40, and my WL in T3 feels absolutely degenerate with what it can do (I spend most of my time spawn camping Destro). However, I expect all of this to change at T4. It's only taken me about 3 days to get the WL up to about 33 or so, so I figure in a week or two I should be in vanq or so and ready to participate in cities from the order perspective.

Spellbound wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:18 pmDoing 1-2 cities a day, it's mostly about filling up w/ marauders now, do a closer look at that as a Dev and you can figure it out. Overtuned aoe dmg, aoe knockdown, other utility?

Monstrocity making them as tanky as tanks by being able to negate armor pen.

Can someone record those fabulous triple pulls? I have never seen them.

of course the community knows why. and many reasons are already indicated in this thread. but for some reason almost no one talks about the main issue, and this is not a balance. if the main issue was in the balance, then the order would lose everywhere: both in general scenarios, and orvr. but the order only loses in cities. I think the main problem is the broken system of selection and filling of the instance. everyone laughed about that there were 20 tanks on order side in one instance. but just what did the players decide that they will play like this? (hey look at this, there is already a tank, a tank, a tank in this instance, and for a change I also will be a tank). players cannot choose in which instance and with which classes they will play on team. what are we talking about, how can players be blamed for this? Of course, there are other factors, probably the balance too, and the low popularity of the order side, and low organization, etc.etc,etc.

Alfa1986 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:46 pm of course the community knows why. and many reasons are already indicated in this thread. but for some reason almost no one talks about the main issue, and this is not a balance. if the main issue was in the balance, then the order would lose everywhere: both in general scenarios, and orvr. but the order only loses in cities. I think the main problem is the broken system of selection and filling of the instance. everyone laughed about that there were 20 tanks on order side in one instance. but just what did the players decide that they will play like this? (hey look at this, there is already a tank, a tank, a tank in this instance, and for a change I also will be a tank). players cannot choose in which instance and with which classes they will play on team. what are we talking about, how can players be blamed for this? Of course, there are other factors, probably the balance too, and the low popularity of the order side, and low organization, etc.etc,etc.

They can be blamed for not organizing themselves via /5.

If ppl organize in proper groups before joining, they would end up in better balanced instances. Ofc those who are left over eat the dirt but it's their choice to not bother with building teams and/or picking a class the group needs.

Sulorie wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:31 pm If ppl organize in proper groups before joining, they would end up in better balanced instances. Ofc those who are left over eat the dirt but it's their choice to not bother with building teams and/or picking a class the group needs.

But I want free shines and don’t want to work, think they should re roll goblins