Return of Reckoning

Washnuggets wrote:Guard is fine the way it is, it doesn't need dumbed down for the masses. If people can't figure it out that's on them. For those who know how to use it, keep using it to destroy the side that doesn't.

Yeah, what was I thinking.... Trying to make the game more fun for everyone to diminish some of the advantage premades have over PUGs.... /endsarcasm

ON a serious note, as I mentioned above, I would say that another big way to support guard would be animation that shows when guard is working or not. Such as the "cast animation" being a permanent animation on both the tank and his guarded target, so that everyone can SEE when someone is guarded... That shouldnt be too hard to do correct?

A previous game I played (Neverwinter) had a class called the Guardian Fighter and an ability he would use called Knights Valor - which split damage with the tank and ALL allies within 150 feet. So it was like guard on steroids basically. The cool think about it though is that it surrounded the tank himself with a blue "aura/shield" looking think AND anytime you hit one of his allies, a blue "projectile" type thing would shoot from the guard-ee to the tank showing the "interception" of damage.

Im not saying go this far, but it was VERY clear when a tank was nearby soaking up damage for the target AND where the tank was...

I think this level of added awareness is something this game needs as well. This would be another aid to guarding - visual cues as to when guard is active or not.

peterthepan3 wrote:^ will render 2h tanks useless.

I think people need to know that not all tanks who go 2H are DPS...

This was in reference to my make guard require shield. I can see what you are saying, but don't miss the point that guard is probably the most OP skill in the game. I would say make it less effective with a 2-Hand Tank, maybe 25-30%. With that said you could drop guard to a flat 30% and leave it as it is and it will bring about better balance. Maybe go down to 25% and make it stackable.

I think some in game UI modifications would be beneficial. Some of those addon's listed through out are pretty essential to good guarding, why not incorporate some of these things in game by default?

But what is your reasoning for punishing a tank who wants to use a 2hander? Even with a 2hander equipped, they should STILL play as a tank - which is what most decent 2h tanks do.

A direct nerf to 2h tanks' guarding potential will simply render playing as a tank boring for some people/neuter individual's creative playstyles (for example I like to play SNB as 2h defensive at times)

th3gatekeeper wrote:Yeah, what was I thinking.... Trying to make the game more fun for everyone to diminish some of the advantage premades have over PUGs.... /endsarcasm

What advantage is this? I do like your suggestion on showing guard damage somehow, admittedly.

I shall reiterate my 2 key points:
1) Guard is easy to use and accessible to all. Download the addons I mentioned a few pages ago and it will become VERY easy to track your guardee's location/distance from you/who is being guarded atm;
2) Your experiences in pug scenarios with arrogant DPS tanks who can't play the game do not justify any changes to a mechanic that has been successful for most people, and one that has never really come under criticism because it functions fine (if it ain't broken don't fix it kinda thing) for people who bother to learn how to use it!

th3gatekeeper wrote:

Washnuggets wrote:
ON a serious note, as I mentioned above, I would say that another big way to support guard would be animation that shows when guard is working or not. Such as the "cast animation" being a permanent animation on both the tank and his guarded target, so that everyone can SEE when someone is guarded... That shouldnt be too hard to do correct?

There are add-ons for that. People need to stop being so lazy and do some asking and/or research about their characters. www.google.com is great for learning new things.

Washnuggets wrote:

th3gatekeeper wrote:

Washnuggets wrote:
ON a serious note, as I mentioned above, I would say that another big way to support guard would be animation that shows when guard is working or not. Such as the "cast animation" being a permanent animation on both the tank and his guarded target, so that everyone can SEE when someone is guarded... That shouldnt be too hard to do correct?

There are add-ons for that. People need to stop being so lazy and do some asking and/or research about their characters.

There are add ons that show animation when guard is active? I have asked around and have never heard of this...

Also, the issue is, its an ADD ON. Why is that an issue? because the people that would be interested in getting this are not the issue. Its the players who ARENT doing/using guard....

When I personally play, I have a HUGE shield - the size of my chosen - that is blue when "in range" and red when "out of range" and tells me how far away they are as well. I value this because I value guard.

The issue is players who dont understand guard, dont test it, dont want to be selfless... DONT CARE to DL add ons.

This is the issue fundamentally... The majoirty of tanks in this game, almost by definition are selfish. They will not be seen DLing addons for something they dont really put much value in. Why dont they put value in it? because they want to have FUN by face smashing with a big 2H weapon while being moderately tanky... They DONT want to follow some MDPS guy around and assisting off him being forced to stay within 30 feet of a guy they cant talk to or coordinate with.

In order to appeal to PUG tanks, there needs to be a built in easier "intuative" guard system. That shows what these addons can do without having to DL or "enable" anything. OR a possibly easier route is make guard a benefit to them, so they WANT to follow around someone and guard them.

The only way to appeal to this player, is to appeal to what they want to do. They want to face smash stuff with a big 2H. Well, what if they could face smash BETTER if they guarded? Well now you have their attention... Now they will be paying attention to who, what, where they are guarding.

is it the perfect solution? Maybe not. But I honestly dont see another way of doing this and to me, it makes "RP sense" since it IS harder to defend against to opponants at once. So you would imagine, either a "reduction to parry" which I DONT like, or "increased damage" to simulate the harder difficulty of defending against two players attacking.

It DOES address the benefit of guarding.

The only "negatives" I have seen are:
1) Guard is easy to use and accessible to all.
2) 2) Your experiences in pug scenarios with arrogant DPS tanks who can't play the game do not justify any changes to a mechanic that has been successful for most people

Both of these I take exception with frankly.
1) Guard is not "easy" to use by any means. You have to select a target and it takes A LOT of effort to stay in guard range. If they guy dies, you need to pick another suitable target close by. Sure through the help of add ons it becomes an easier job, but by NO means is it "easy to use" Like I said, I came from another game that used a similar thing and I had ZERO clue how far guard range was... I didnt put much value in it either because it was easy to kill most pugs because they TOO didnt guard...
2) My experience is from months and months of playing and specifically paying attention to this. Even SNB tanks who brag about "guard swapping" and install tons of addons and even have some macro that says "im guard X person" dont understand how to guard right. I constantly see them swapping to a low target OUT OF RANGE of their guard. I have farmed 1700 emblems at 40.. and even more in T3... I would say its in 90%+ of my games that tanks dont guard. I see this with almost EVERY pug tank I run into. Zero guard. The only times I ever see guard are when I apply it, or I call out tanks for not applying it or its another premade group. Other then that 9 times of 10 tanks are NOT using guard.

So when I see these arguments, "use addons, it works for other players fine" these dont apply to the majority of situations in the game, the majroity of RvR, SCs. Sure in other premades or when you make a premade yourself, these things are "just fine" because you coordinate them, which is what gives and edge. But the vast majority of the game, its NOT fine and NOT "intuitive" to use guard appropriately.

Making taunt be a single target DMG reduction is useless. Why use taunt when I could use challenge which literally does the exact same thing except I also gain the benefits of having DMG reduced when I am hit. That is not BIG utility that is nerfing utility. Some tanks need that added DMG bonus to be a threat when defending squishies or their guarded target. If the target is already challenged the taunt would be useless since it wouldn’t stack.

An interesting idea by giving the tank some other added benefit by sticking near their guardee. Allowing the tank to do 30% more DMG all the time just by being near their guardee could lead to abuse issues.

You presume under What this does that a possible outcome is the only outcome from this happening. Tanks could go for even more DMG then and only use guard on targets that aren’t taking DMG or drop guard when DMG gets too much or only start guarding other tanks as to take less DMG over all for the DMG increase.

The idea of increasing DMG through guarding while decreasing guard DMG received is interesting but once again could be abused in any number of ways like the ones I mentioned previously regarding the What this does section. Increasing the guard DMG received and in turn reducing the tanks DMG is a TERRIBLE idea. There are plenty of tank/healer/DPS combos on both sides (most notably from my experience DPS DoK with a Chosen guard) that would essentially make them unkillable unless zerged down.

Take a step back and what this DOES is:

1) You presume once again a possible outcome as the only outcome
2) The damage reduction is already in affect you just pulled a DMG utility the tank has in order to force them to gain that same utility through another means
3) Once again you presume a possible outcome as the only outcome. Glass cannon anything will always occur, that is how some people wish to play
4) I won’t touch on the usefulness or claimed lack thereof but your proposed changes for it will have what project to be horrible balance ramifications for the game

If you want to do anything with guard, which I will state I see no problem with how it is working now, make it so that the tank when within range of their guarded target receives a benefit of something like:

- Wounds increase
- Toughness or armor increase or a pure reduced armor penetration %
- Initiative increase or a pure reduced % chance to be crit
- Block / Parry or Dodge & Disrupt % increase

All of those things help make a tank more survivable which in turn allows them either to stay alive longer and do more DMG if DMG is something they are concerned about and doesn’t require the what would be massive changes to how an entire archetype of classes work

th3gatekeeper wrote:Both of these I take exception with frankly.
1) Guard is not "easy" to use by any means. You have to select a target and it takes A LOT of effort to stay in guard range. If they guy dies, you need to pick another suitable target close by. Sure through the help of add ons it becomes an easier job, but by NO means is it "easy to use" Like I said, I came from another game that used a similar thing and I had ZERO clue how far guard range was... I didnt put much value in it either because it was easy to kill most pugs because they TOO didnt guard...
2) My experience is from months and months of playing and specifically paying attention to this. Even SNB tanks who brag about "guard swapping" and install tons of addons and even have some macro that says "im guard X person" dont understand how to guard right. I constantly see them swapping to a low target OUT OF RANGE of their guard. I have farmed 1700 emblems at 40.. and even more in T3... I would say its in 90%+ of my games that tanks dont guard. I see this with almost EVERY pug tank I run into. Zero guard. The only times I ever see guard are when I apply it, or I call out tanks for not applying it or its another premade group. Other then that 9 times of 10 tanks are NOT using guard.

1) Guard is very easy to use: pick a target, guard him, if someone else is in need of guarding you swap it. I'm sorry but it is a very, very simple thing to use. In regards to range? Download the addons I mentioned as they show a shield which indicates if you are far or near your guarded target - problem solved!

2) This is a problem with pugs in general, not to come across as rude. If you pug against other pugs, you can be prepared for these sorts of players/results. I reiterate: even if 90% of tanks weren't using guard, that doesn't negate from the fact that it is a very easy thing to use and no buffs/carrots ought to be given to people who flat-out refuse to use it. They don't deserve it.

Stop trying to draw a difference between guarding in pugs vs premade/6v6 situations. Downloading several addons takes 5 minutes, configuring them takes 5 minutes, so anyone who is refusing to do so/wants everything made easy just to facilitate to their individual and selfish game style can jog on.

th3gatekeeper wrote: Both of these I take exception with frankly.
1) Guard is not "easy" to use by any means. You have to select a target and it takes A LOT of effort to stay in guard range. If they guy dies, you need to pick another suitable target close by. Sure through the help of add ons it becomes an easier job, but by NO means is it "easy to use" Like I said, I came from another game that used a similar thing and I had ZERO clue how far guard range was... I didnt put much value in it either because it was easy to kill most pugs because they TOO didnt guard...
2) My experience is from months and months of playing and specifically paying attention to this. Even SNB tanks who brag about "guard swapping" and install tons of addons and even have some macro that says "im guard X person" dont understand how to guard right. I constantly see them swapping to a low target OUT OF RANGE of their guard. I have farmed 1700 emblems at 40.. and even more in T3... I would say its in 90%+ of my games that tanks dont guard. I see this with almost EVERY pug tank I run into. Zero guard. The only times I ever see guard are when I apply it, or I call out tanks for not applying it or its another premade group. Other then that 9 times of 10 tanks are NOT using guard.

So when I see these arguments, "use addons, it works for other players fine" these dont apply to the majority of situations in the game, the majroity of RvR, SCs. Sure in other premades or when you make a premade yourself, these things are "just fine" because you coordinate them, which is what gives and edge. But the vast majority of the game, its NOT fine and NOT "intuitive" to use guard appropriately.

You're trying to make something sound complicated that isn't. You can have all the beautiful colors, sounds and animations you desire built into the game for guard, but if someone sucks, they suck. There's no amount of coding that will help with that.

peterthepan3 wrote:But what is your reasoning for punishing a tank who wants to use a 2hander? Even with a 2hander equipped, they should STILL play as a tank - which is what most decent 2h tanks do.

A direct nerf to 2h tanks' guarding potential will simply render playing as a tank boring for some people/neuter individual's creative playstyles (for example I like to play SNB as 2h defensive at times)

th3gatekeeper wrote:Yeah, what was I thinking.... Trying to make the game more fun for everyone to diminish some of the advantage premades have over PUGs.... /endsarcasm

What advantage is this? I do like your suggestion on showing guard damage somehow, admittedly.

I shall reiterate my 2 key points:
1) Guard is easy to use and accessible to all. Download the addons I mentioned a few pages ago and it will become VERY easy to track your guardee's location/distance from you/who is being guarded atm;
2) Your experiences in pug scenarios with arrogant DPS tanks who can't play the game do not justify any changes to a mechanic that has been successful for most people, and one that has never really come under criticism because it functions fine (if it ain't broken don't fix it kinda thing) for people who bother to learn how to use it!

I didn't realize we were talking about fun or boring, thought we were talking about balance. I mean, some of the recent changes to casting on the move has taken away a large amount of fun for certain classes. I just feel 50% damage redirection/reduction is too powerful. As I stated, why not just nerf it to 25-30% and make it stack. There are solutions, just need to not be overly concerned with the fun appeal.

The one change I would do to guard is change the harshness of it.
50% reduction at 30ft 0% at 31ft makes tanks pretty much feed the melee train mentality and overvalue kb cc.
Id like to see some sort of diminished effectiveness that depends on the class guarded.
So its diminishes at range. 15ft to 50ft for mdps and 30ft to 80ft for ranged maybe even longer for cloth healers.