Return of Reckoning

th3gatekeeper wrote:

xanderous wrote:

roadkillrobin wrote:
Couple of examples then,
Every Order mdps got a AA haste tactic and only DoK on destro got one.
Order got stackeble healing buffs that affects the entire group, Exalted Defence, Focused Mending, Blessing of Grungi. Destro only have the Blessing.
Order got stackble Crit buffs, Leading Shots, Ancestors Fury, Dirty Tricks. Destro have none. These also stacks with Intitive debuffs and other to be crit debuffs aswell.
Order got 2 ranged knockdown on ranged classes. Destro have no ranged knockdowns on ranged classes.
Order have melee classes that can propell themself towards the enemy. Destro have none.
Order have group Wounds buff, Destro have none.

In general, Order got better sustained dps trogh a better static skillset, while destro relies heavily on defensive morale cycles to sustain it's defence against it.

So more auto attacks, a few healing buffs and some stackable crits, not even going to address the WL pounce as it already had its cooldown increased despite the fact it almost bugs every time, what about those wounds, seem to always loose quite a bit when i go near destro, whats that about, So all of those things are what you justify as means to generate faster undependable attacks and buffs that make all those abilities useless and can wreck entire wb's in a few seconds, i will grant order have some neat tricks but come on we are talking Morales here, they are in category of their own.

.... not sure what just happened.... You went from seemng to be curious and open minded, to throwing out completely every bit of "evidence" and arriving at your already pre-determined opinion..

The entire point of all this was to talk about how nerfing morale gain was the wrong path, but nerfing morale abilities is the right path... Which then lead to you asking "why is order better" which we provided, where you basically ran back to "well were talking about morales" so were back at the beginning again? Im confused.

This is why I said, rather than argue about specifics. its better to look at it as a whole where people "generally agree its balanced as is" however destru have better morales (m4s) which leads to morale pumps being big in warbands. The nerf to morale gain was a nerf to Destru (mainly). Without morale pumps, order classess generally outperform destru counter parts.

But overall, I think the consensus here is to unnerf morale gain rate. Just target specific nerfs on specific morales.


So why dont we all lay out WHICH morales specifically need to be nerfed (both DEstru and order) and work towards a goal here rather than sling mud at eachother.

Do you want to know what my point is buddy, fixing a bug that has long since overstayed its welcome beyond comprehension, you can shout about proper balance regarding abilities until the cows come home but you are defending the current state of things which are fundamentally broken and are balanced upon a mechanic that is the crux driving force of the organized guilds on destruction who actively use this as means to punish players who don't use exploitative mechanics, do you comprehend?

If you can't see the benefits of having these buffs there's no point in having a discussion about it with you. It's not like order don't have Morales to.

th3gatekeeper wrote: however destru have better morales (m4s) which leads to morale pumps being big in warbands.

This statement is not true. Order has better morale 4's combinations purely from a morale damage output perspective. Dwarves have the BEST morale 4 bombs with decent group compositions in this game. But they have no way to increase morale gain rates. Morale gain rates don't matter in a keep defense because when the door goes down all sides will have their morale 4's.

When this game was doorhammer and the attacker hit the door everyone within the keep (defenders) would gain morale along with all the attackers because hitting the door put the defender and attacker in combat.

Note: Morale gain rates on this server is SO SLOW that you might not even reach your morale 4 before the door goes down for the attacker or the defender. You should be reaching your morale 4 multiple times before even the first door goes down.

Think of the morale damage output as a resource that gets refilled every minute to 100 sec's. The more morale damage output you have the more resource you have available to spend. Destro can't reach these high morale damage outputs like order can.

th3gatekeeper wrote: The nerf to morale gain was a nerf to Destru (mainly).

This is not true. The nerf to morale gain hits order harder because the relative difference is more extreme now. The correct higher base morale gain rates, will create a smaller relative difference then it does right now. As shown here in this example.
What RoR morale gain scaler's did was create an even bigger divide among order and destro on morale gain rates. It ensured that order can't use morale 4's and most of thier m3's in almost any situation.

This is great when you talk about damage morales in a bubble, but is it not true that a chosen and blorc can hit imac on cooldown?

dansari wrote:This is great when you talk about damage morales in a bubble, but is it not true that a chosen and blorc can hit imac on cooldown?

No it's not, you don't start the fight with M4 up.

roadkillrobin wrote:

dansari wrote:This is great when you talk about damage morales in a bubble, but is it not true that a chosen and blorc can hit imac on cooldown?

No it's not, you don't start the fight with M4 up.

Does it take roughly 60s for a shield tank with tactic on to reach m4?

Depends on wich version of morale pump is used.

But the thing is, ID is a great reactionary Morale but over time it only reduce dps by around 19%. IF you have it avilible every CD.

If Morale rates would be like on WAR, order tanks would have it up every 2nd minute aswell, On top of having all those other group benefits that i listed. But now we have a system were it's only avilible every 6 min for order. And that is why Morales rates must work like the were designed to do. ID is designed to mitigrate around 9% dps for order but it current state it only does 3%.

So it kinda baffles me that order would rather see Desteo nerfed then Order morale rates corrected as it evens out the ballance for everone instead of hard nerfing one realm.

The reasoning for the reduced static morale rates was to make ORVR less about morale dumps. I think morale dumps needs fixing aswell. But attacking the morale rates instead of the core issue of early morale damage is not working and having a negative impact on the overall ballance aswell.

dansari wrote:

roadkillrobin wrote:

dansari wrote:This is great when you talk about damage morales in a bubble, but is it not true that a chosen and blorc can hit imac on cooldown?

No it's not, you don't start the fight with M4 up.

Does it take roughly 60s for a shield tank with tactic on to reach m4?

See for yourself


Click here to watch on YouTube

The thing that video is showing is a Chosen getting around 750 morales in 20 seconds. That would take him 112 second to reach M4. When turned into M/sec, actually are in close in line with how much it should give

Video shows around 37M/sec and and it should give 33/sec. Bugged modified tactic should in theory give 76M/Sec.

Just remove morals from the game. Get rid of I-win abilities. Clearly it's what the community wants. This discussion is hilarious. Lol at Robin's sig. Get over yourself, wow.