Return of Reckoning

Tesq wrote:

lefze wrote:

Tesq wrote:A) you need to punish the "time" a bw/sorc spend in the max potential not the simple fact they are inside the max possibility of their meccanic. So any malus give will be give after an X ammount of time and will PERSIST after an x ammount of time. So that you need to think in advantage to what do and not consume meccanic in few seconds to prevent immediate problem. If you pass a long time in MAX meccanic you will have a fair ammount of time where enemy will have an advantage.

After x sec of y meccanic point you will recive 5 sec of malus z (self refrsh after 5 sec)
After x+5 sec of y meccanic point you will recive 10 sec of malus z (self refrsh after 5 sec)
After x+10 sec of y meccanic point you will recive 15 sec of malus z (self refrsh after 5 sec)

B) difference of st vs aoe: punish more the meccanic (not hard one but relevant) if aoe, due how backlash work you still get the same backlash dmg if you hit 1 ppl or 9. Fix this by make BW/Sorc to be able to recive backlash from any ppl hit every aoe skill.

C) make too easy for sorc/bw reach 100 meccanic so that the will be costantly under the penality and they will be forced to look at meccanic points.
-> you can do this by put meccanic gain once every tick instead once every skill this will force bw/sorc to reduces the meccanic costantly. Or the the gain will be passive every x second of combat + skills.

D) do not promote a finisher meccanic like in previously suggestion as this just push for auto meccanic regulation where after x skill always a finisher will follow and problem solved (no skill in meccanic use, no self awareness).

How is just dumping the mechanic for the sake of dumping any different from the "finisher mechanic"? If anything having a meaningful way of dumping it requires more decision making than just pressing a button to dump it because you HAVE to.

because finsher meccanics is istantly when you are in danger you drop finisher (like choppa/slayer) and istatly uou have no malus so you can exploit the meccanic till you want then simple drop it entirely.. smart ppl will exploit this for max rewards less trade off. This is work better on rdps as numerous other things due give you more time to react....

That's the whole point of what I'm proposing, a mechanic you SHOULD use ACTIVELY to gain actual benefits. Sure you can make the mechanic just punish you for not depleting Dark magic when it's at max, but why not instead make mecahnics that favor players that can take advantage of added depth and skillceiling added through expanding the current mechanic to encourage active decisionmaking? If you read my post, it's not about building to max then dumping all of it at once to get rid of a debuff, it's about incorporating the mechanic into the rotations you do, where dark magic serves more or less as a resource for changing the rotation depending on the situation. As long as the benefits you get from dumping dark magic outweighs the benefits of just sitting at 100 the classes should be fine, but the rotations should definetly require some serious planning and skill to pull off.

Penril wrote:Let's not fool ourselves: If you use SP/SE it is because it is a AoE attack and your other AoE attacks/morales are on CD. You don't use them because "i need to be careful with backlash".

You do. When you start actually being focused fired. And casters are prime candidate for that (when I DPS I definately take into consideration that a caster class will go down easier if he is not concered with his own backlash).
If he is guarded and focused healed, that is different story.
Players can very easily play the mechanic poorly and there are enough players who know how to counter magic DPS (such as high disrupt/block).

Ugle wrote: Point is it is still a small price to pay for the buff the mechanic gives. The downside is way less than the upside. Don't pretend otherwise. BW/Sorc have been top dog throughout the entire lifetime of both WAR and ROR because of this.

the mechanic is more a requirement to play sorc/bw than a buff.

The issue is that playing with the mechanic is almost not needed, and not to balance bw/sorc. If the rise of mechanic points have more drawbacks, I expect affiliated changes to bw/sorc will greatly increase the damage potential for them if they take the risk and stay at max. mechanic points. risk and reward

Scaling additive self incoming healdebuff that stacks with abilities.

I try and come up with overhauls but they just seem too out of place for this games low impact kinda spammy gameplay, but I think the healdebuff would solve some problems mentioned like warband level healing negating the drawback.

Sorc/bw mechanic really only hurts them in small scale when they actually get trained and it hurts thier dps output tremendously.

Aurandilaz wrote:The wounds stuff sounds way too nasty, possibly leaving the classes in a state of totally gimped whenever other wounds debuffs occur.
.....
it's sheer masochism to play in pug wb and die about 5-10 times an hour simply by killing yourself.
.....
And in organized WB play,.... enemies know their dmg potential and already bring full attention to bringing it down,
.....
As for "muh 6v6", I would not even bring my sorc to that fight, simply because how easy it is to shut down. Dhar Magic at 100 or not, good enemy healers cleanse all the dots and minor focus is enough to prolong cast times to the effect that you have issues getting damage out.

Atropik wrote: On the other hand sorc/bw under 90 combustion have nothing, they can hardly deal even with mobs. Their mechanic was created as an overpovered and gamebreaking thing and after all patches and nerfs they have only their mechanic left on a board. Sorcs has zero points in mobility, zero in surviveability, zero in escape (except morales). Everything they have is THE ROTATION, easy predictable and conterable by anyone who plays more then a month, that makes gameplay as a sorc/bw boring as hell.

Sorc is mostly unplayable solo as it is now

Yes, I read the entire thread. Every post. I found both these posts to provide (what I consider) good feedback. I dislike wounds debuff, I think it would make them too squishy....


It does seem to me that a BW without any mechanic, is essentially worthless. A BW with full mechanic is "sheer masochism" to play solo, or in a PUG Warband or even PUG SC... But in a PREMADE group, you can ignore the mechanic completely.

So how can we adjust the mechanic to address these points:
#1 too punishing without a healer.
#2 not punishing enough with a healer. (aka - can ignore it)
#3 too punishing without full mechanic. (without mechanic, you are worthless).

These are the problems I see with it...

Out of ALL the suggestions, Haojin had the most interesting, and most plausible idea:

Haojin wrote:if you really look for a solution that forces sorc/bw not stay %100 mechanic all the time just make carreer mechanic 100+ and increase backslash damage/chance if 100+. AP suggestion is just a bait that will be covered with Zea/RP ap ritual.

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However it MERELY addresses 1 of the problems - now the mechanic cannot be ignored when with a healer as you will take lethal backlash if you keep letting it build up.... But we still have not addressed problems #1 and #3.

So how can we make the BW class LESS punishing if you do not have a healer, and how can we make it LESS punishing when you are not at full mechanic while at the same time making it something you should not ignore when in a fully supported Warband????

Penril wrote:You guys are missing the point. These classes gain insane bonuses for being at 100, and the drawback is a ridiculous backlash that can be healed with a HoT from any healer. Slayer/Choppa, on the other hand, receive nasty penalties for staying red all the time.

The idea is to make it dangerous to stay at 100 on a BW/Sorc (backlash is NOT dangerous). This can come with some buffs ofc; we also discussed internally the possibility of buffing Meltdown for example.

uhm no.
a Hot ticks each 3 secs , at best a hot can tick for 500 to 600 max on critic , combu and dm can tick you at 750 .and it can happen each second when u chain casting at max mechanic points ,

Backlash IS dangerous specialy when u are under damage from enemys , doted ,....

First and foremost, slayers and choppas are a different world compared to sorcs , and bws , since they are mostly sustained dmg dealers with posibilitys of spike dmg if they got high end critic .

bws and sorcs , have 2 mechanics to be efective, first rotation , as single target and more efective , 2 aoe builds for large fights.

unlike meles they dont benefeit from weapon dmg , to fullfill his role , as dps they rely mostly in critic and burst, wich is provided by their mechanic . and for the general if they get closed in its over .

my advice for this thread would be instead to try to nerf change the bw , sorc mechanic focus in the mechanic of choppas and slayers wich is actualy underperforming in the risk versus reward .
Break the wheel of nerf cycle starting by improving bad things instead to touch things than actualy work well.

Let me get this stright; the objective is to make BW/Sorc USE their class mechanics (as stated in the OP)... or to make the actual class mechanic more punishing (as the author himself repetaed quite a few time saing that right now it is not punishing enough)?

If it is the first...

Carot and stick is the key, right now BW/Sorc are powerfull when at full Comb/DM... but they are quite weak when at low levels of Comb/DM... if you want for them to spend their class resources than you need to:

1) give them something to DO with that resources... as many have already said turn some skill from GENERATING into CONSUMING (as it was done with SE/SP that were originally builder as well), An example could be Sear/gloomburst for ST (since they are quite used in that spec) while not being the main spammable (just like AoE have FB/SS as spammable builder), you could also remove the CD from them since having to build resources would itself limit their usasge (damage could be tewaked in this regard to avoid abouse while still making them valuable).
Detonate sound like a promising one for the BW DoT spec... but the sorc don't really have something comparable, so it will be necessary to retailor some skill to cover this role.

This is the same concept SL/Choppa... when they CONSUME their resurces they do it by using a skill that is WORTH consuming it, not ONLY to get rid of the drowback.

2) If damage is not enough either increase it (but it will probably be a really bad idea because it will make it impossible to use them outside of organized groups... and while balance is not aimed to pugs you can't make a class and not just a spec be UNPLAYABLE if you go pug or solo as well) or completely change the drawback, an example could be to MIRROR their bonus.
Comb/DM give increased crit chance and increased crit damge... than give them increased chance to suffer crit and increase dmg taken (probably not a 1:1 but something like a 2:1 should be fine... so 100 Comb/DM will mean 15/20% increased chance to be critted and either a flat 20% increased dmg taken or 50% incresed crit dmg taken... I think the flat DMG taken should be more balanced but that is for testing )



On the flip side... if the aim is to actualy make their mechanic more punishing... than you also have to consider how the class perfomr when it is low on mechanic compared to when it is at full... because that too is one key point.
If the BW/Sorc will be forced to disharge their combustion in order to not get themself oblitered by the drawback than you also have to give them the tools to be effective without depending ONLY on their mechanic.
This could be done by reducing the effect of Comb/DM while increasing the basic damage of the skills, for example lowering the 100% increased DMG on crit to 50% while rising the abse Damage by 20%... this will make LESS APPEALING to stay at 100 comb/DM and will not require a TOO HARSH drawback to be imposed.
It will also make it possible for solo/Pug to play the class while Organized WB will have to consider if it is still worth to dedicate additional healing or guards to their BW/Sorc to counter their mechanic that is not as NECESSARY for them as before comprade to assigning them to MDPS that will get full benefit out of them while BW/Sorc will have to mange their resources and drawback on their own




Now with all this said let me spend a few last words about the "irrelevant damage" that is a 100 Comb/DM explosion/Backslash... Merc/Conq BW/sorc should be around 5,5k/6,5k HP. 750 damage are more than 10% of their HP but as someone said before it can just be covered with a Hot or 2... that is true, but those same healing spent to cover it wil not be healing damage from the opponet! you can't look at the self damage vs healing in a vacuum... you also have to consider damage from the opponent, otherwise we could also say that every DoT that deal less than 750 damage per tick is useless because it can be covered with a HoT... and disregard completely the possibility of that DoT actualy being STACKED with other source of damage. If you heal those 750 damage than you won't be healing 750 damage from the enemy AoE... at the end of the Inc you still got 750 damage, more than 10% of your Max hp, than any other cloth in the same position as you. I'f your lack is bad you could actualy take those damage wil taking a spike damage from the opponent... or even worse you can end up turning a sustained damage into a spike on your own.


TLDR: you have to look at both side of the story, you can't force BW/Sorc to spend their resources without giving them a GOOD reason to do it (only treatening them will simply make their mechanic a drawback and not a resource anymore).
You can't over tax the drawback without givng them back a way to be effective when below full Comb/DM.
Risk/Reward are not simply balanced as an equation where 1:1=100:100, you have to take the effects of to high value as well, a class that can one shot the enemy and get one shot on the flip side could actualy be resonable from a Risk/Reward point of view... but is not fun to play at all

Suggestion: make crit/critdmg bonus from combustion also affect bw/sorc. I.e if yo're at 100 combustion you get +30% to be crit, +100% incoming critdmg. Risk/reward

Ugle wrote:Suggestion: make crit/critdmg bonus from combustion also affect bw/sorc. I.e if yo're at 100 combustion you get +30% to be crit, +100% incoming critdmg. Risk/reward

Would also make em unplayeble.

The best sugestion so far is the AP increase based on CM wich might would require BW/Sorcs to use their AP abillity.

I dont think you can touch their damage mechanic as there is way to much complexity revolving BW /Sorcs with their low base damege and high crit damage. And the Backlash damage is a massive punishment when getting focused aswell.

Ugle wrote:Suggestion: make crit/critdmg bonus from combustion also affect bw/sorc. I.e if yo're at 100 combustion you get +30% to be crit, +100% incoming critdmg. Risk/reward

Would make the class unplayable. Imagine one of those big out of nowhere hits like snipe or some such with 100% more crit damage. Not to mention the damage you would receive while bombing.