Return of Reckoning

footpatrol2 you forgot to mention :

footpatrol2 you know that the devs change here things, how it was on live, why you whiniing over moralegain etc.. the moralgain is good, and this game is not 6 man group, you forgot this, this is a big teamplay until 24 members in a wb, what the player forget how it is in the rvr,play with strategy, the bos are important , the keep are important during a keep fight/defend...

So Haojin, I know your poking fun. Whatever. I'll bite.

Since you listed out a bunch of tank wall stuff I'll go through and explain how Tank walls works and what thier function is.
First you have to understand the old keep mechanic's which is not implemented in RoR.

Old keep mechanic. Here is how you get 60 m/s. At 60 m/s m4 is attainable at 60 sec's which IS the hardset cooldown on morale's. All the puzzle pieces fit at this morale gain rate.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20633
TLDR? It basically takes a guild warband to pull off those kinds of morale gain number's because you need 3 guild banner's and all member's being in the same guild. RvR is Literally the endgame content.

Tank walls Group comps on stuff you listed. I left out a ton of stuff because I'm trying to be short which this isn't.

@mogt
I don't think the game was that broken to begin with. There is SOO many things not working correctly with this current form of the game. Entire spec lines have lost their meaning. I think patch 1.3 provides player's with more options on style of play/unique group compositions then this current form. I can't go anywhere else to play warhammer online.

@footpatrol2 i like your passion about that stuff, i like some of stuff you suggest; just for fun.

Besides all pokes, i'm not sure you are aware of current morale gains until 08/12/2017 patch. Morale scaler was active and if X amount of players around you, your natural morale gain was 30-40 per second -maybe more- . You were close to your ideal morale gain for a LONG time in zergy fights. Still not sure you knew that..

About Cycling Defensive Morales; You know that M4's and Def Morale Cycles won't do any **** agaist 4-5 Lots of Shootin' SH's or even coordinated any kind of morale bombing with Ruin and Destruction or Great Fang. Why would i choose meaningless shield wall instead of wiping the **** out of them ? If i have 4 IB i'll go with 4 X Axe Slam with morale gear + 2 AM. A possibilty that you could melt 12-13 people with that every 1 minute.


"the best defense is a good offense"

So Your suppose to destroy major morale bomb component's, prior to the door going down. If you don't then you will suffer through the morale bomb's you listed. Not everything is about ap AoE damage, especially in coordinated/organized vs coordinated/organized. Whatever about zerg. Zerg is easy to kill.

I can't stress enough how CRITICAL it is to stagger the morale level's of the opposition. Otherwise you'll get hit via the full strength of a morale bomb.

I'll provide a example:
Take 3 or 4 sniper engie's and Single target assist with 2 or 3 healer's or
3 or 4 sniper havoc magus's and Single target assist with 2 or 3 healer's.

The environment is a keep defense. Start sniping out player's to reset the morale. The individual deaths straight up don't matter really because it won't cause a wipe. What matter's is the resetting of morale. I care about the morale drain upon death mechanic. That sniper team is counter play/scalpel tool to major morale bomb components or defensive morale cycle's. It is PURELY the only reason why I'd bring it. If you kill say 1 to 2 major morale bomb components of say your Lots of shootin m4 team Your potentially saving 9 player's from death via morale bomb for a full minute. Which... buys your side time to morale bomb back...

See the counterplay.
ST matter's in Orvr in organize vs organize.

Defensive morale cycle's kinda don't matter in a game that has morale bombs. Defensive morale cycle's is just a super fun addition of the game and I think more options on style of play is better then less option's on style of play.

Sure you can try to snipe with st. But you can't snipe them behind walls. It's super easy to simply pump morales with ams or shammys, no need to ever get out of cover. If you're not stupid, you will keep your most valuable assets in cover. Then at the right moment pop out and destroy who ever is your opponent, defender of attacker.

There is definitely a lot of ways to go about it, but most if it is just pointless to bother with. For example on order, all you need is 8 bws and 4-8 ams. You can win pretty much every keep siege. Throw in a couple kotbs if you wanna morale drain the enemy front line so they can't counter push easily. Destro can do a similar thing with shs and shammys, as you know.

I think it would be great to see racial wbs in the lakes. But atm it's just not worth it, and people are not encouraged at all to pull it of.

A optimally built warband for roaming will look drastically different then a optimally built warband for keep offense or a optimally built warband for a keep defense. Each phase of the game carries different value's. Which will make your warband's that are optimally built to phase look drastically different. Any type of organized will beat disorganized.

@Collateral
Your talking about hiding behind the walls of a keep.

You can make very nasty rampart assault groups to get at those morale bomb components. This is dependant on scale of course, if you got 4 warbands in a keep defense then the scale is completely out of wack and the game balance just starts falling apart. That is a problem with the ORvR mechanic. There shouldn't be that many player's in one spot. But lets say for example it is warband vs warband at a keep. Those morale bomb components have to stay in combat. Which mean's they can't just hide. They have to be close to the fight.

Being able to hit the keep door is I suspect is a fundamental part of the game. Some Class spec line's are built around hitting the door and lifetap healing rampart assault groups along with being able to apply active ability buff's. The rampart assault groups Main goal is to disrupt morale level's of the opposition. It's not about wiping. Those morale level's NEED to be staggered to prevent the full strength of a morale bomb. Your taking away thier morale bombs with sometimes a single death or two, if you pay attention to your combat log you'll know who to target.

WE's and WH's in my opinion are specifically designed for this role. Later mythic allowed all mdps classes to fill this role but WE/WH's do it best. The lifetap spec lines in my opinion partly serve to assist heal those rampart assault groups. Look at how Vaul/Da green/Sacrifice/Grace spec line's are structured. I'm not saying this is the sole reason but it is a big reason like 40 to 60% of why they are structured the way they are.

What I am trying to show is the counterplay. I am also providing a reason on why WE's and WH's are wanted in ORvR.

There is SOO MANY coolio things this game was capable of doing at one time. WAY more option's on style of play then there currently is. WAY more dynamic and interesting group compositions which is extremely flavorful with massive strengths and drastic weaknesses.

As we have stated in the past and repeatedly, we dont like the mindless moralepump to win.

I think we finally managed to get rid of all proximity morale increasers and as such we can tune morale gain to a level we like. Also stated from elsewhere is that we are thinking of making slight changes to morale abilities themselves but we wont disclose what exactly until we have a more clear plan in mind.

Natherul wrote:As we have stated in the past and repeatedly, we dont like the mindless moralepump to win.

I think we finally managed to get rid of all proximity morale increasers and as such we can tune morale gain to a level we like. Also stated from elsewhere is that we are thinking of making slight changes to morale abilities themselves but we wont disclose what exactly until we have a more clear plan in mind.

Well, the whole morale discussion could continue like 100 pages, not sure patchnotes thread is appropriate for it. But anyways i must say that, the problem ISN'T morale gain, both factions got tools and items for it. You can create loopholes to stay pumped all the time. The problem is PURE, UNDEFENDABLE damage which becomes cancerous with 30-40+ people doing that.

The best option imho without destroying certain classes-builds-metas is : Making a new immunity makes you immune to morale damage if you hit by morales x times in x seconds.

Good luck with the morale work, i'm looking forward to see it

Haojin wrote:

Natherul wrote:As we have stated in the past and repeatedly, we dont like the mindless moralepump to win.

I think we finally managed to get rid of all proximity morale increasers and as such we can tune morale gain to a level we like. Also stated from elsewhere is that we are thinking of making slight changes to morale abilities themselves but we wont disclose what exactly until we have a more clear plan in mind.

Well, the whole morale discussion could continue like 100 pages, not sure patchnotes thread is appropriate for it. But anyways i must say that, the problem ISN'T morale gain, both factions got tools and items for it. You can create loopholes to stay pumped all the time. The problem is PURE, UNDEFENDABLE damage which becomes cancerous with 30-40+ people doing that.

The best option imho without destroying certain classes-builds-metas is : Making a new immunity makes you immune to morale damage if you hit by morales x times in x seconds.

Good luck with the morale work, i'm looking forward to see it

I can probably count the few rare souls with fingers of one hand, who are willing to go maximum moral cancer path to pump morals with few ST AM abilities to get those 100 feet AoE dmg morals.
99.99% of the server population has no interest in doing a weird setup so you can snipe an innocent goblin from 100 feet with 3xBurning Head.
Running too many AMs to get those morals out is just gimping yourself. Even shaman pump is meh tier considering the possible moral cheese available (9 sec Mara M2 bomb dump is total overkill 99% of time)

Main issue IMO is that due to the fact that natural moral gain is now somewhere closer to 20 than old 30 (something is really off lately with the gains, its below its normal "fixed" state), and thus large, if not almost full majority of server population has no realistic chance of reaching M4 in battle (maybe 1-2 times during very long siege), so most people ignore moral specs for buying better M4s because how unrealistic the chance of getting one out are.
Its close to being "locked out" game content due difficulty of gaining 3600 moral points before fight is over.