Return of Reckoning

Nekkma wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2019 12:25 pm

Jabba wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2019 12:19 pm I

Pull and then silenced etc in mid air by the lion leaving rdps/healers unable to do anything, a solution to this would be for the lion to be self stunned for like 1.5-2 seconds maybe? after the pull activates, similar in idea to the am/shaman instant res. My thinking on this is that it would give those in mid air time to detaunt or w/e. The stun duration should be low enough that the Lion would have time to get back in range after the stun wears off to add to the damage when the pulled player lands, it would just mean the pulled player isn't so helpless while he's in mid air taking free damage.

This is a more general issue but perhaps it becomes most glaring with guardian WL which have both kd and pull. It is the devs of this servers idea to have you disabled during the pull. On live you could detaunt, use anti cc, morales, pots, even cast heals with casttime while you where airborne. I hate this change as it basically adds another knockdown on a separate immunity timer. A compromise could be to counted as moving while in air which would allow for instant abilities but not casted ones.

wargrimnir wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 11:50 pm To preface this, we've taken several looks at the class in large format changes, and small format changes, among several different players and proposals

wargrimnir wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 11:50 pm Where the WL has a weakness is reliance on a pet. However unlike other pet classes, their pet is also responsible for a large amount of their burst capability and their strongest CC in both a 3s KD, and a 65' range pull.

wargrimnir wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 11:50 pm The issue this thread will address is the reliable front-loaded burst of the class. As a high mobility, high CC class, additionally having devastating front-loaded burst is what pushes this class over the edge.

wargrimnir wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 11:50 pm As a side effect, having a decent AOE at R24 will assist in leveling, which is nice but not important for balance.

Drysill wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2019 2:53 pm

Spoiler:

wargrimnir wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 11:50 pm To preface this, we've taken several looks at the class in large format changes, and small format changes, among several different players and proposals

You explain nothing. Is this a robust argument?? ‘several looks’ and ‘different players proposals’ is no argument. Give examples so we can understand and argue in detail.. At least you give the chance through this topic to hear from more different players.. des-only players don’t count, we know what they say all these years already..

wargrimnir wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 11:50 pm Where the WL has a weakness is reliance on a pet. However unlike other pet classes, their pet is also responsible for a large amount of their burst capability and their strongest CC in both a 3s KD, and a 65' range pull.

So a WL has a weakness (reliance on pet) and an advantage(high burst). Seems fair trade to me.
Moreover, you present WL’ strongest CC, a 3s KD and a 65’range pull. Mara has it too in better way as well: a 3s AoE KD and a 65’ range pull. So what is your point?
Killing the pet, a WL lose:
1) 3 out of 4 CC we have: 3s KD, Pull and Silence. We keep snare.
2) Burst from CS and Pack Synergy tactic.
And is near to useless for 15 sec. What other class can have 15sec global CD with little effort (not 1v1 ofc)??
While mara has all his dps + CC all the time.. and you try to penalize the WL for that. You should compensate instead.
Also, pet can be CCed on the way to Fetch, while Mara’ray cant…
Not to mention that Fetch is exploited by most des to avoid pull (I can pm you for info)

wargrimnir wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 11:50 pm The issue this thread will address is the reliable front-loaded burst of the class. As a high mobility, high CC class, additionally having devastating front-loaded burst is what pushes this class over the edge.

Front-loaded burst?? On what perspective? WBs, 6man, solo or scenarios?
WBs: no leader asks for WL in his WB, only SL and BW. Maybe we only have 2 AoE skills and our burst is low after all… pet will insta die if we send it away to Fetch, so its always on passive by our side attacking what we attack. Good thing we can join pug WBs at least.
6v6: enemies can choose to target pet and kill it very fast, as it cant detaunt or be guarded and UI don’t help healers to support it, making WL far less effective. It’s a matter of choice, that we seen on recent 6v6 tournament and 6v6 fights around in general.
Solo: WL can surely kill very fast some targets, but there are some classes that can kill back too.
Scenarios: Top Dps position is changing sc after sc, never always the same class…
Comparing to Mara..
WL has higher: burst, mobility
Mara has higher: sustained dps, AoE dps, Survivability
Higher CC: same
Also, WL is the only mdps out of 6 that is restricted to 2h weapon. All other 5 mdps have Dual Wield. DW is better due to higher % to proc abilities and higher parry. mara vs other dps has +10% parry, WL vs other dps has nothing. No wonder 9 out of 10 slayer/choppa we see out there use DW.
Btw, please consider DW axes for WL, like the keep lord in Eataine.

wargrimnir wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 11:50 pm As a side effect, having a decent AOE at R24 will assist in leveling, which is nice but not important for balance.

Is this some kind of trolling…?? Is this an argument for real??? Is it 1 of these ‘different player proposals’?? someone said ‘nerf WL as long as I have AOE at r24’?? really disappointed
Both options are unacceptable…
White Lion is the Mane Attraction…

Drysill wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2019 2:53 pm

wargrimnir wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 11:50 pm To preface this, we've taken several looks at the class in large format changes, and small format changes, among several different players and proposals

You explain nothing. Is this a robust argument?? ‘several looks’ and ‘different players proposals’ is no argument. Give examples so we can understand and argue in detail.. At least you give the chance through this topic to hear from more different players.. des-only players don’t count, we know what they say all these years already..

wargrimnir wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 11:50 pm Where the WL has a weakness is reliance on a pet. However unlike other pet classes, their pet is also responsible for a large amount of their burst capability and their strongest CC in both a 3s KD, and a 65' range pull.

So a WL has a weakness (reliance on pet) and an advantage(high burst). Seems fair trade to me.
Moreover, you present WL’ strongest CC, a 3s KD and a 65’range pull. Mara has it too in better way as well: a 3s AoE KD and a 65’ range pull. So what is your point?
Killing the pet, a WL lose:
1) 3 out of 4 CC we have: 3s KD, Pull and Silence. We keep snare.
2) Burst from CS and Pack Synergy tactic.
And is near to useless for 15 sec. What other class can have 15sec global CD with little effort (not 1v1 ofc)??
While mara has all his dps + CC all the time.. and you try to penalize the WL for that. You should compensate instead.
Also, pet can be CCed on the way to Fetch, while Mara’ray cant…
Not to mention that Fetch is exploited by most des to avoid pull (I can pm you for info)

wargrimnir wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 11:50 pm The issue this thread will address is the reliable front-loaded burst of the class. As a high mobility, high CC class, additionally having devastating front-loaded burst is what pushes this class over the edge.

Front-loaded burst?? On what perspective? WBs, 6man, solo or scenarios?
WBs: no leader asks for WL in his WB, only SL and BW. Maybe we only have 2 AoE skills and our burst is low after all… pet will insta die if we send it away to Fetch, so its always on passive by our side attacking what we attack. Good thing we can join pug WBs at least.
6v6: enemies can choose to target pet and kill it very fast, as it cant detaunt or be guarded and UI don’t help healers to support it, making WL far less effective. It’s a matter of choice, that we seen on recent 6v6 tournament and 6v6 fights around in general.
Solo: WL can surely kill very fast some targets, but there are some classes that can kill back too.
Scenarios: Top Dps position is changing sc after sc, never always the same class…
Comparing to Mara..
WL has higher: burst, mobility
Mara has higher: sustained dps, AoE dps, Survivability
Higher CC: same
Also, WL is the only mdps out of 6 that is restricted to 2h weapon. All other 5 mdps have Dual Wield. DW is better due to higher % to proc abilities and higher parry. mara vs other dps has +10% parry, WL vs other dps has nothing. No wonder 9 out of 10 slayer/choppa we see out there use DW.
Btw, please consider DW axes for WL, like the keep lord in Eataine.

wargrimnir wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 11:50 pm As a side effect, having a decent AOE at R24 will assist in leveling, which is nice but not important for balance.

Is this some kind of trolling…?? Is this an argument for real??? Is it 1 of these ‘different player proposals’?? someone said ‘nerf WL as long as I have AOE at r24’?? really disappointed
Both options are unacceptable…
White Lion is the Mane Attraction…