Return of Reckoning

Bozzax wrote: If yoy doubt it just watch peter outdamage maras and choppas in 6v6.

Ever heard of potent enchantments and natures blade?

Penril wrote:

Egoish wrote:Instead of a heal debuff maybe something similar to chosen crippling strikes? I don't think order has a mirror of it though it should probably just be 10% outgoing damage reduction on a short duration as it isn't reliant on crits.

I think you don't know how Crippling Strikes has been working in the last several months (and since the latest patch). Also, SM has Dragon's Tail.

Spoiler:

Aurandilaz wrote:

Penril wrote:Wouldn't it be too strong combined with KotBS outgoing heal debuff aura?

25% inc + 25% outgoing is a 43.75% AoE heal debuff. Pretty damn good. I can see KotBS/SM being (more) mandatory in warbands.

It was initial idea; how about changing both to something like 15%? Kotb lowers heal value to 85%. SM takes 15% from that away, down to 27.75% negative effect.
Alternatively get rid of some of those OP knight things so maybe SM gets a few good stuff, meaning maybe we see SM+IB combos one day even in WB gameplay...

That's a overall Order nerf, considering Chosen has a 25% incoming heal debuff aura.

For the last several months? I checked to find what you were talking about and crippling strikes was changed this week to be a crit buff effect, is that what you are talking about?

I was not aware of Dragons Talon however, seems better than the changed crippling strikes anyway but obviously not usable as aoe. I don't think it would be amiss to add something to tanks which increases group defence rather than offence (heal debuff, resist debuff, crit buff are all offensive), i think an increase in ttk would be good for the game overall.

Perhaps give the ability a chance to proc a group wide reduced armour pen value, or give the people you hit a debuff that reduces their armour pen so it's not a mindless spam buff and you think about who you apply it to.

25% chance to proc that zealot perma knock back wind of insanity skill for 5 seconds on the SM.

Also SM should be able to move around while the proc is in effect

Mirror it with Da Greenest.
In this case I would not see the mirror as a bad idea, because it could make the the knight less mandatory and open up space for the IB.

We did this already on destro with BO+BG and it worked quite well.

I made it clear that double stacking will be removed.

HB is the offensive Blade Enchantment of the SM.
I think that should be taken into consideration if the devs are going to really change it into something new.

Alright well, since they're not going to stack period and you're looking for suggestions on what to change the effect to... I imagine this was an issue mostly because it allowed BWs to blow people up harder than any other class, aka the synergy it brought to the table for damage.

Since this isn't a thread about nerfing SM damage potential, then I suggest we make the proc on HB something that allows SM to keep doing what it's doing, without allowing BWs to benefit from it as well. So maybe something like a toughness debuff proc to the target? Or perhaps it could debuff target's initiative or maybe it could debuff the targets chance of parry/block/disrupt/dodge... Something along those lines. A healdebuff honestly just sounds fairly useless and will end up being a straight nerf to DPS SMs, which I assume isn't the target here.

ToXoS wrote:HB is the offensive Blade Enchantment of the SM.
I think that should be taken into consideration if the devs are going to really change it into something new.

And while we're at it, given that, from what I could tell, the only reason to take a SM in a warband is for the stacking HB, with this change we really need to consider how to make SM more viable for warband play. I think everyone agrees it needs to change, but by how much will determine how unplayable SM becomes. From my perspective, double spirit debuffing isn't an issue and if you take that away, you'll take away what ultimately makes a SM, a SM. (Take away triple debuffing all you want though!)

live4treasure wrote:Or perhaps it could debuff target's initiative

Stat debuffs already exist in Nature's Blade

dansari wrote: with this change we really need to consider how to make SM more viable for warband play.

Not really. Look at past WH/WE proposals.

peterthepan3 wrote:In what environment is this stacking an issue? I can only see it being an issue with BWs: for engineers and SMs, there is nothing overperforming about the ability to stack. In any other environment, it really isn't an issue.

From a SM PoV, I am fully against removing HB's ability to stack with WoH as this would drastically affect the SM's niche of DPS tank. I don't see an issue whatsoever with SM WoH + EB stacking; good groups know how to counter a SM, the counterplay options are there.

I agree with this. Therefore without simply repeating what Pan said I would add given the plethora of CC abilities and counter options available to destruction player classes I really fail to see what anyone is complaining about. I understand the point of the OP so please spare me. I just don't see it as a legitimate concern.