Return of Reckoning

GodlessCrom wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:43 pm I wouldn't mind seeing some actual data on how often you dudes are getting disrupted, and versus which targets. If you make deft defender a wash with true strike, its pointless to spec into deft defender because the equivalent investment in true strike, plus the strikethrough they gain from gear and Int, will mean everyone except high willpower healers and SnB tanks with Hold the Line! up will essentially have 0-5% disrupt chance. This on top of the fact that Magus, BW, and Sorc can already crit for 2k+ with a single ability, from range, hitting against resists that softcap at 40% damage reduction (and are easily debuffed by the classes that hit against said resists).

When ranged dps can just delete you without any chance to swing back or counterplay, it makes the game pretty damn boring. They've all already received a massive buff (un-nerf, maybe, but still) with the (rightful) reversion of the dot defense-on-tick changes.

So if someone could do some testing, that would be cool.

Azarael wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:46 am True Strike
- Costs modified to be in line with crit abilities (5, 10, 15, 15) = 45 total.
Enough people seemed to think TS was an excessive addition that I'll make this tweak, but we will now see how things go.

Azarael wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:21 pm

Tesq wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:08 pm I know i may be repeatitive and all but willpower is the only primary stats which increase an avoidance and disrupts problems are only on healers, look i think the bypass to renown skill is a great addition for customization also being this costly, but the problem is into willpower not into general disrupt % or other pure % increase.

Willpower should give half value than ini and wep skll which are not primary stats ( those are given more easily due sets which dont happen with ini/ wep skill).

Then generals bypass for every avoidance but as now costly as crit and in same %.

It's a fair point, but I think some people would argue that Willpower itself is a secondary stat, with primary stat for healers being defenses.

lefze wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:27 pm

Telen wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:21 pm Willpower doesnt benefit healers in the way a main stat for a dps does. Heals dont go against an avoidance. If Willpower provided strikethrough against healbebuff, which I suppose is the heal counter, then it would be valid argument.

By that logic healers can penetrate 100% of their "resistance". Can the dps classes do this, let alone on their own? In the same way dps classes have ways to deal with their respective counter avoidances, with the exception of casters vs healers, healers have the tools to counter most healdebuffs.

GodlessCrom wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:04 pm Melee have to be in actual melee range to do damage. Casters mash buttons from 100-150 feet away to do damage. Less risk, ergo less reward. Except casters also hit against less mitigation, which they debuff even further, and have higher tooltip damage. So less risk...similar reward?

Azarael wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:08 pm

Code: Select all

                #region Parry, Dodge, Disrupt                

                //Parry/Dodge/Disrupt chance from tooltip
                double secondaryDefense = (((defensiveStat) * 100) / ((target.EffectiveLevel * 7.5 + 50) * 7.5));
                //Contestion based on offensive stat. This gets added to make it harder to actually do a defensive event, without actually contesting it directly above.
                //This should mimic the live formula.
                double removedDefense = (((offensiveStat) * 100) / (((caster.EffectiveLevel * 7.5) + 50) * 7.5));
                
                double baseRoll = 0d;
                baseRoll += removedDefense;

                if (cmdInfo.DamageInfo != null)
                    secondaryDefense += cmdInfo.DamageInfo.Defensibility;

                secondaryDefense += target.StsInterface.GetTotalStat(Stats.Disrupt) - caster.StsInterface.GetStatLinearModifier(Stats.DisruptStrikethrough);
                secondaryDefense = secondaryDefense * caster.StsInterface.GetStatPercentageModifier(Stats.DisruptStrikethrough);
                double finalRoll = (StaticRandom.Instance.NextDouble() * (100d + baseRoll));

                 if (secondaryDefense >= finalRoll) // Disrupt
                 {
                     target.CbtInterface.SetDefenseTimer((byte)CombatEvent.COMBATEVENT_DISRUPT);
                     caster.CbtInterface.SetDefendedAgainstTimer((byte)CombatEvent.COMBATEVENT_DISRUPT);
                     defenseEvent = (byte)CombatEvent.COMBATEVENT_DISRUPT;
                 }

secondaryDefense = (((1050) * 100) / ((40 * 7.5 + 50) * 7.5))   -> 40
removedDefense = (((1050) * 100) / (((40 * 7.5) + 50) * 7.5))   -> 40

double baseRoll = 0;
baseRoll += 40;

secondaryDefense += target.StsInterface.GetTotalStat(Stats.Disrupt) - caster.StsInterface.GetStatLinearModifier(Stats.DisruptStrikethrough);

secondaryDefense = secondaryDefense * caster.StsInterface.GetStatPercentageModifier(Stats.DisruptStrikethrough);

double finalRoll = (StaticRandom.Instance.NextDouble() * (100d + baseRoll));

if (secondaryDefense >= finalRoll) // Disrupt

int secondaryDefense = (int)((((double)defensiveStat / offensiveStat * 0.075) * 100));

if (secondaryDefense > 25)
    secondaryDefense = 25;
    
...

secondaryDefense += bonus_disrupt - bonus_strikethrough
if (StaticRandom.Instance.Next(100) <= secondaryDefense) // Disrupt

secondaryDefense = secondaryDefense * caster.StsInterface.GetStatPercentageModifier(Stats.DisruptStrikethrough);

Genisaurus wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:44 pm Aza posted the current avoidance code in another thread:

Azarael wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:08 pm

Code: Select all

                #region Parry, Dodge, Disrupt                

                //Parry/Dodge/Disrupt chance from tooltip
                double secondaryDefense = (((defensiveStat) * 100) / ((target.EffectiveLevel * 7.5 + 50) * 7.5));
                //Contestion based on offensive stat. This gets added to make it harder to actually do a defensive event, without actually contesting it directly above.
                //This should mimic the live formula.
                double removedDefense = (((offensiveStat) * 100) / (((caster.EffectiveLevel * 7.5) + 50) * 7.5));
                
                double baseRoll = 0d;
                baseRoll += removedDefense;

                if (cmdInfo.DamageInfo != null)
                    secondaryDefense += cmdInfo.DamageInfo.Defensibility;

                secondaryDefense += target.StsInterface.GetTotalStat(Stats.Disrupt) - caster.StsInterface.GetStatLinearModifier(Stats.DisruptStrikethrough);
                secondaryDefense = secondaryDefense * caster.StsInterface.GetStatPercentageModifier(Stats.DisruptStrikethrough);
                double finalRoll = (StaticRandom.Instance.NextDouble() * (100d + baseRoll));

                 if (secondaryDefense >= finalRoll) // Disrupt
                 {
                     target.CbtInterface.SetDefenseTimer((byte)CombatEvent.COMBATEVENT_DISRUPT);
                     caster.CbtInterface.SetDefendedAgainstTimer((byte)CombatEvent.COMBATEVENT_DISRUPT);
                     defenseEvent = (byte)CombatEvent.COMBATEVENT_DISRUPT;
                 }

I'm going to do everyone a favor and walk through this step-by-step, so we can get real, factual numbers.

First, let's work with the assumption that any mRDPS class will have 1050 Intelligence, and any healer will have 1050 Willpower. These stats are trivial to get, at least with Sov gear, and endgame itemization should be the basis for handling balance - otherwise your **** breaks when everyone is at the endgame. Likewise, we'll assume all players involved are level 40.

Code: Select all

secondaryDefense = (((1050) * 100) / ((40 * 7.5 + 50) * 7.5))   -> 40
removedDefense = (((1050) * 100) / (((40 * 7.5) + 50) * 7.5))   -> 40

First we work out what our base defense chance is going to be. 1050 willpower at level 40 gives a value of 40. Likewise, 1050 Int seems to remove 40 from our defense chances... at least, that's the implication. As we'll see shortly, it doesn't.

Code: Select all

double baseRoll = 0;
baseRoll += 40;

Rather than reducing disrupt directly, the strikethrough value seems to increase the denominator of the avoidance equation. As we'll see, our disrupt chance is no longer 40/100, it's now 40/140.

Code: Select all

secondaryDefense += target.StsInterface.GetTotalStat(Stats.Disrupt) - caster.StsInterface.GetStatLinearModifier(Stats.DisruptStrikethrough);

This is where we add the target's increased chance to disrupt, and where we remove the attackers reduced chance to be disrupted, from the overall disrupt chance. We will assume that the defender has the same +disrupt% on his gear as the attacker has disrupt strikethrough%. Therefore the the disrupt% remains the same.

Code: Select all

secondaryDefense = secondaryDefense * caster.StsInterface.GetStatPercentageModifier(Stats.DisruptStrikethrough);

This line looks like it should do something, but it doesn't. The function call on the right always returns '1'. I honestly don't know what this is doing here, it was probably left in because the same line did nothing on the old code either, and someone didn't want to change it, or thought it did something useful.

Code: Select all

double finalRoll = (StaticRandom.Instance.NextDouble() * (100d + baseRoll));

if (secondaryDefense >= finalRoll) // Disrupt

So as I said before, secondaryDefense has a value of 40, and we are generating a number between 0 and 140, give or take the slimmest fraction. If the generated number is less than or equal to 40, we disrupt. Therefore, our disrupt chance is 40/140.

A caster with 1050 int casting at a healer with 1050 willpower is facing a 28.5% disrupt chance. This is before Deft Defender, or True Strike. This is before disrupt or strikethrough on gear. This is before tactics.

Interestingly, if both the attacker and the defender have lower stats, the base disrupt actually decreases. If you run the same equation with 750 Intelligence vs. 750 Willpower (at level 40), the base disrupt chance is 22.2%. But if the attacker only has 800 Int and the defender has 1050 Willpower? 30.6% chance to be disrupted.


When we compare this to the old formula...

Code: Select all

int secondaryDefense = (int)((((double)defensiveStat / offensiveStat * 0.075) * 100));

if (secondaryDefense > 25)
    secondaryDefense = 25;
    
...

secondaryDefense += bonus_disrupt - bonus_strikethrough
if (StaticRandom.Instance.Next(100) <= secondaryDefense) // Disrupt

In the AoR formula, no single avoidance chance could be greater than 25%, from stats alone. Tactics, gear, renown, etc. could increase this value above 25%, but 10 Intelligence vs. 1050 Willpower would have 25% disrupt base.

So our example of 1050 Int versus 1050 Willpower would result in a 7.5% disrupt chance, base. Technically 7%, because it's an int and those round down to the nearest whole number.

So the AoR formulas had 7% disrupt. The current RoR formulas give 28.5% disrupt in the same scenario. Again, without any tactics, renown, or gear.


So how did this happen? I suspect that whomever wrote this code thought that this line:

Code: Select all

secondaryDefense = secondaryDefense * caster.StsInterface.GetStatPercentageModifier(Stats.DisruptStrikethrough);

Would actually return something useful. If this line returned the percent-value of the attacker's base chance to strikethrough, i.e. 1050 Intelligence would return 40/100 = 0.4. This would make the defender's chance to disrupt the attack
(40 * 0.4) / 140 -> 16/140 -> 11.4%.

A base disrupt chance of 11.4% is higher than AoR, but not obscene. However, if that were how that line worked, then it would actually cause intelligence to hurt your disrupt strikethrough. 800 Int vs 1050 Willpower would only have a (40 * 0.3047)/130.47 -> 9.3% disrupt rate.

Looking at these numbers, I have to agree that the formulas have to be reverted to the AoR calculation. Healers are literally 4x as likely to disrupt incoming spells, for free. Literally just for having the stat that they needed anyways. They give up nothing to get that. That is insane.

Renork wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:38 pm

GodlessCrom wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:04 pm Melee have to be in actual melee range to do damage. Casters mash buttons from 100-150 feet away to do damage. Less risk, ergo less reward. Except casters also hit against less mitigation, which they debuff even further, and have higher tooltip damage. So less risk...similar reward?

Sweetheart lets make something clear, if you truly think mdps are at a huge disadvantage, then why don't you provide some data to backup your claims? After the disrupt change went live the meta switched to melee and it still continues to favor melee. As a Magus player, I have to sit idle next to my demon to pull off my rotations and most smart players tend to immediately target me and/or simply move away the moment they see me land a dot on them. If I move away to chase, then I lose my stacks, which means I lose a significant portion of my damage. Peter has shown magi can be beast 1v1, but that requires a specific spec and stacking a very high amount of toughness. I don't play a BW, Sorc or AM, which all gain a massive advantage with true strike, so I do understand not all classes should have access to this and it should be limited. But to say disrupt is not an issue is completely ignorant.

GodlessCrom wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:56 pm

Renork wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:38 pm

GodlessCrom wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:04 pm Melee have to be in actual melee range to do damage. Casters mash buttons from 100-150 feet away to do damage. Less risk, ergo less reward. Except casters also hit against less mitigation, which they debuff even further, and have higher tooltip damage. So less risk...similar reward?

Sweetheart lets make something clear, if you truly think mdps are at a huge disadvantage, then why don't you provide some data to backup your claims? After the disrupt change went live the meta switched to melee and it still continues to favor melee. As a Magus player, I have to sit idle next to my demon to pull off my rotations and most smart players tend to immediately target me and/or simply move away the moment they see me land a dot on them. If I move away to chase, then I lose my stacks, which means I lose a significant portion of my damage. Peter has shown magi can be beast 1v1, but that requires a specific spec and stacking a very high amount of toughness. I don't play a BW, Sorc or AM, which all gain a massive advantage with true strike, so I do understand not all classes should have access to this and it should be limited. But to say disrupt is not an issue is completely ignorant.

I didnt say melee were at a huge disadvantage. Ranged has its own advantages, as does melee. You, and some other posters, seem personally offended by the idea that this should be so. Most classes have negligible willpower: as the data above shows, the majority of disrupt occurs due to stat gain from willpower, not from hard-statted (i.e. renown or gear) disrupt. Ergo, most targets are fair game: healers are the only hard targets for you, and thats if they have maxed Willpower (which very few do, as we are assuming healers value Willpower alone above all other stats when this isnt true: they value armor, initiative, toughness, and wounds as well, to varying degrees.)

Following what Geni said, perhaps the stat defensive formula should be altered. This would have the effect of making everyone in the game squishier, as the defensive formula applies to all stats (i.e. our parry chance and our dodge chances all go down significantly as well) but perhaps its worth it so Magi can kill healers in the pug SC.

GodlessCrom wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:56 pm Following what Geni said, perhaps the stat defensive formula should be altered. This would have the effect of making everyone in the game squishier, as the defensive formula applies to all stats (i.e. our parry chance and our dodge chances all go down significantly as well) but perhaps its worth it so Magi can kill healers in the pug SC.

Eathisword wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:20 pm I really don'T understand all that disrupt problematic. The dot tick being disrupt-able was a problem because it affected Dot based classes, making them unreliable and useless, so it was unfair to them, since DD classes were not affected by it - be them melee or range.

Outside of that... Parry reaches insane numbers versus disrupt. 40% parry is normal. +70% is high.

20% disrupt is normal. 40% is high. Give or take a little.

Even if the enemy could hit your back with 50% uptime, parry would still avoid an equal amount than a common disrupt value...

I may be stupid, but I don't see the problem with disrupt. It is already the 2nd lowest avoidance available for nearly all classes (dodge being inexistant or so), on a type of damage that cannot realistically be mitigated more than 40% by resist.