Warhammer Online
https://www.returnofreckoning.com/forum/
https://www.returnofreckoning.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=37069
Idealism and realism has nothing to do with this. Your question has been answered numerous times. Mode 1 : Premade vs Premade only. Mode 2: Randoms vs Randoms only. If a less good premade that keeps on losing, keeps on queuing for a Prem vs Prem, then they really care about that "competition" everyone so effortlessly mutters about, but no one puts their money where their mouth is when it comes down to actually implementing it, formally and structurally. If not, they can always queue a PUG sc/city/instance for some ACTUAL random challenge.Hecksa wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:38 pmSure, this is the idealist stance. We''d all love for every city instance to be perfectly balanced. How are you going to achieve it?
Some premade warbands are much better than others. Should the less good ones be forced to lose against the better ones convincingly and repeatedly? Or, again, are you saying the bad warbands have to split up and play as pugs to get a fair fight?
Ok, say that is implemented. Where do 6/12man premades go? Or what about the pugs who decide to group up to get a semblance of balance before going in? Should they, who are barely more than randoms themselves, be faced against full premades on voice? The devs have made a big point of rewarding grouping up and organizing over soloing in the past, I don't see why they should change that philosophy now.Mistdancer wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:33 pmIdealism and realism has nothing to do with this. Your question has been answered numerous times. Mode 1 : Premade vs Premade only. Mode 2: Randoms vs Randoms only. If a less good premade that keeps on losing, keeps on queuing for a Prem vs Prem, then they really care about that "competition" everyone so effortlessly mutters about, but no one puts their money where their mouth is when it comes down to actually implementing it, formally and structurally. If not, they can always queue a PUG sc/city/instance for some ACTUAL random challenge.Hecksa wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:38 pmSure, this is the idealist stance. We''d all love for every city instance to be perfectly balanced. How are you going to achieve it?
Some premade warbands are much better than others. Should the less good ones be forced to lose against the better ones convincingly and repeatedly? Or, again, are you saying the bad warbands have to split up and play as pugs to get a fair fight?
Choices for everyone. Everyone wins.
Do you know which group is the only one who loses? The premaders who roar like lions about said competition, but only fight pugs to farm them for gear and rr. When it comes to actually discussing the possibility of a mode that puts them up against others geared/prepared/communicated just like them, they suddenly turn to kittens making up excuses about how unfair the world really is, and other similar grocery store philosophies. It is rather simple really.
1) The first is a more technical/coding question easily fixable if, as you say, there are such intentions visible. If you can have a 24 v 24 prem instance, you can also code a 6 v 6 one, and so on.Vayra wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:47 pm Ok, say that is implemented. Where do 6/12man premades go? Or what about the pugs who decide to group up to get a semblance of balance before going in? Should they, who are barely more than randoms themselves, be faced against full premades on voice? The devs have made a big point of rewarding grouping up and organizing over soloing in the past, I don't see why they should change that philosophy now.
Mistdancer wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:01 pm 2) Yes they do have a history of promoting grouping up, and yes they wouldn't probably change their stance just like that, but this is a forum. Ideas are discussed here. Arguments are made and finally those involved can draw conclusions and criticism on the ethos and the depth and the integrity and the logic of other peoples stances and deliberations, regardless of the futility of it all. Hopefully - that is.
Mistdancer wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:33 pm Do you know which group is the only one who loses? The premaders who roar like lions about said competition, but only fight pugs to farm them for gear and rr. When it comes down to actually discussing the possibility of a mode that puts them up against others geared/prepared/communicated just like them, they suddenly turn to kittens making up excuses about how unfair the world really is, and other similar grocery store philosophies. It is rather simple really.
So to answer your reiterated former question. Competition. Competition ITSELF is their reward, since they profess to do it because they wanna play in a challenging and competitive environment. Unless there is a hint of hypocrisy in those loudmouth statements. Juss sayn
Hecksa wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:23 amMistdancer wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:01 pm 2) Yes they do have a history of promoting grouping up, and yes they wouldn't probably change their stance just like that, but this is a forum. Ideas are discussed here. Arguments are made and finally those involved can draw conclusions and criticism on the ethos and the depth and the integrity and the logic of other peoples stances and deliberations, regardless of the futility of it all. Hopefully - that is.
Sure, but by that token we could just as well suggest making the city 100% PvE. That'd fix the issue of pugs being slapped around too, but you're fundamentally changing the game. Discouraging group play is the same thing, for me - it's not a solution at all. The endgame content of a game that is about group PvP should be group PvP. From a certain point of view, being able to play it at all without a group is quite a concession from that focus, to be honest - though I'm glad you can.
Mistdancer wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:33 pm Do you know which group is the only one who loses? The premaders who roar like lions about said competition, but only fight pugs to farm them for gear and rr. When it comes down to actually discussing the possibility of a mode that puts them up against others geared/prepared/communicated just like them, they suddenly turn to kittens making up excuses about how unfair the world really is, and other similar grocery store philosophies. It is rather simple really.
So to answer your reiterated former question. Competition. Competition ITSELF is their reward, since they profess to do it because they wanna play in a challenging and competitive environment. Unless there is a hint of hypocrisy in those loudmouth statements. Juss sayn
I've played in plenty of premades and I can assure you, I've never really been interested in "competition", in terms of 24vs24 or 6v6. "Rewarding" me with that is not interesting to me, and a number of other people I've played with too. Sure, some are interested in seeing who's got the better warband, but a lot aren't. For me, warbands originally drew me in for fighting against large numbers in ORvR, but that's not the point. I go into the city with a warband to have a better chance of winning, just like I'd do PvE with my guild to have a better chance of success. It's as simple as that.
Suppose you were doing an endgame PvE instance. You've wiped a few times because your tank doesn't know how to hold aggro, your healer is wearing a DPS set, etc. You go talk to your guildmates and set up a group of guildies who can run the thing together.
However, when you go in, it's suddenly twice as hard. You keep wiping, despite having correctly geared players who have spent time learning strategies for each boss. After a few hours, you give in. The game has levelled up the dungeon, because you had the audacity to come in there with players you know understand their role, and are capable of doing it properly.
At this point, you're frustrated. How can you improve your chances of getting your gear? You can go back to pugging, and hope to hit the lottery with a decent group, or you can keep trying with your guildies to get better. While you and your guildies are improving, though, the instance difficulty is slightly increasing week by week too. Are you just supposed to just keep running it and get lucky with groups enough times to earn your gear? Where does skill or organisation play a part in this? Do you not get rewarded for trying to learn the instance?
This is what you'd be putting in front of guilds trying to run the city. Sure, you can try to better yourselves and increase your chances of getting the gear, but if you do that, we're going to move the goalposts for you. If you don't like that, you can go back to pugging. In other words, don't bother trying to improve at the game. Keep doing what you're doing. There's no incentive to get better here.
I agree pugs getting stomped is not a good thing for anyone. However, in my opinion, if you protect them, you have to reward the premades that would otherwise be stomping them, because those premades would likely have won any of those other instances if they had been in them. Just like in my example, you've taken away the PvE instance that they've tried to get a decent group together for, and put a much harder one in it's place, because "they should have a challenge". So, either let them do the easy instance, or reward them for being better than that.