Return of Reckoning

Omegus wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:18 am Maras being terrible outside of Monstro is also a problem. it's very close.

Im sorry, but that is not true. Look up some better maras on the killboard and you will see that they are doing well. Like Dogman or Theoddone.

Maras can do very high damage in ST build. They have access to a 25% damage boost and 50% armor pen for all attacks that require a mutation like their finisher. They can ignore most of you armor with some WS. The aoe knock down is also great to buy the healers some time or get away when health is low.

Most people just don't utilize Maras correctly. Come play order and see how it is to fight against them.

All in all they have a very decent solo build, st build and aoe build.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJ_sCyesN_U

5s stance cd is basically 3 GCDs nowadays, for specs that require stance dancing (I.e. ST spec) it means there's barely any risk in doing that as you have rend to use in both ST ones if nothing else. Also, AA buff in brutality is by no means meh, its useful even if not very effective. ST mara is just much less fun to play that ST WL, due to burst capabilities and pounce. That's all.

Cyrylius wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 8:58 am 5s stance cd is basically 3 GCDs nowadays, for specs that require stance dancing (I.e. ST spec) it means there's barely any risk in doing that as you have rend to use in both ST ones if nothing else. Also, AA buff in brutality is by no means meh, its useful even if not very effective. ST mara is just much less fun to play that ST WL, due to burst capabilities and pounce. That's all.

All true. Brutality proc should just add 25% AA dmg. Marauder used to have only 1H that was copied unto "offhand" as mutation. Savagery AA debuff is okay but Savagery dot adds more dmg than people think. Its basically 100-200dmg every second passively when attacking. When marauder changes stances their buffs from those stances disappear also. This is RoR change from what i remember, and imo should be reversed so you can use Mutation buffs/debuffs much more efficiently. That is probably why 5 sec CD originally because stance buffs didnt vanish if you changed stance, so you cant have all stance buffs up close to 100% of the time.

Edit; Btw Marauder Savagery and Brutality Morale 4 Lashing Power/Forked Aggression are INSANE. Probably 2 best Morale's in the game

Sinisterror wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:07 pm

Cyrylius wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 8:58 am 5s stance cd is basically 3 GCDs nowadays, for specs that require stance dancing (I.e. ST spec) it means there's barely any risk in doing that as you have rend to use in both ST ones if nothing else. Also, AA buff in brutality is by no means meh, its useful even if not very effective. ST mara is just much less fun to play that ST WL, due to burst capabilities and pounce. That's all.

All true. Brutality proc should just add 25% AA dmg. Marauder used to have only 1H that was copied unto "offhand" as mutation. Savagery AA debuff is okay but Savagery dot adds more dmg than people think. Its basically 100-200dmg every second passively when attacking. When marauder changes stances their buffs from those stances disappear also. This is RoR change from what i remember, and imo should be reversed so you can use Mutation buffs/debuffs much more efficiently. That is probably why 5 sec CD originally because stance buffs didnt vanish if you changed stance, so you cant have all stance buffs up close to 100% of the time.

Edit; Btw Marauder Savagery and Brutality Morale 4 Lashing Power/Forked Aggression are INSANE. Probably 2 best Morale's in the game

First, they are far from the actual best m4 abilities in game (burning head, Khaine's warding, excommunication). Second, for all their usefulness they are placed in mastery trees that get close to no use from anything other than fully offensive m4 like choppa one. I don't see in what situation I'd have to be as a ST marauder (to take brutality capstone, for starters, as its absolutely gutted by 5s cd on stance swapping, but that's a separate issue) that both of those trees seem to lean into to actually build up a defensive m4 and use it. At least one of them should be moved to monstrosity tree to even start considering it for sieges (even then, arguably not worth using instead of great fang), but as doing so would either require sov bonus or dropping some other skills I'll happily let those few excited marauders that hype it up theorycraft usage for those skills. They are unique, I'll give them that.

some1 use this m4 or see it ?

lumpi33 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 8:35 am

Omegus wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:18 am Maras being terrible outside of Monstro is also a problem. it's very close.

Im sorry, but that is not true. Look up some better maras on the killboard and you will see that they are doing well. Like Dogman or Theoddone.

Maras can do very high damage in ST build. They have access to a 25% damage boost and 50% armor pen for all attacks that require a mutation like their finisher. They can ignore most of you armor with some WS. The aoe knock down is also great to buy the healers some time or get away when health is low.

Most people just don't utilize Maras correctly. Come play order and see how it is to fight against them.

All in all they have a very decent solo build, st build and aoe build.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJ_sCyesN_U

Theoddone plays very defensively. He's an example of a great player on a **** class.
I've fought Dogman and his sole purpose is bringing in people for his 5man to kill.

Compare that to WL's 10s cooldown burst rotation, and it's a no brainer that Mara sucks compared to WE or Choppa. Any Mara player would do better on those classes than a Mara.

I say this as a WL who looks at a Mara as a prime target, provided they have no escape route or friends around.

lumpi33 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 8:35 am

Omegus wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:18 am Maras being terrible outside of Monstro is also a problem. it's very close.

Im sorry, but that is not true. Look up some better maras on the killboard and you will see that they are doing well. Like Dogman or Theoddone.

Maras can do very high damage in ST build. They have access to a 25% damage boost and 50% armor pen for all attacks that require a mutation like their finisher. They can ignore most of you armor with some WS. The aoe knock down is also great to buy the healers some time or get away when health is low.

Most people just don't utilize Maras correctly. Come play order and see how it is to fight against them.

All in all they have a very decent solo build, st build and aoe build.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJ_sCyesN_U

Listing two of the best players of a class and therefore determining the class is just fine is kinda misleading. Any class will do just fine when played by the best. Theoddone must be one of if not the best mara, thinking this guy wouldn't obliterate is ridiculous. Then you look at the past scenarios and well...it's good obviously, but not as outstanding as it should be.

https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 3b0382c998
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 53fb8c8571
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 22d74a90d7
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... db92f60cba

Sure just some samples and there obviously are samples vs pugs where he will mop the floor but I don't have time to go through match after match to find a fair 12v12 with similar enough setups.

Don't get me wrong the class isn't weak at all but yeah I gladly fight and get obliterated by a mara vs the crazy burst that comes from a wl. When facing a mara you atleast have the option to kite somewhat a wl won't care and just murder you even if he is just decent. Acting like the wl isn't bonkers and shouldn't in any sense ever see a buff is a bit of a joke.

While we're talking about gap closers, here are two specs that badly need them. Wrath and Grace WP. 2 specs dependant on hitting things to do anything without a gap closer... It's like having a SL or WL without charge or pounce.

Scottx125 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 6:18 pm While we're talking about gap closers, here are two specs that badly need them. Wrath and Grace WP. 2 specs dependant on hitting things to do anything without a gap closer... It's like having a SL or WL without charge or pounce.

Delete this

lemao wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 6:35 pm Delete this

How about no?