Return of Reckoning

What was in the last patch that had such an impact on order? Remember destros usual tactics got wrecked by removing gtdc, mara pull and other stuff earlier. Dont remember reading anything that made me think destro were now at an advanatage.

Destro doing better as NA destro seem to have got organised and Big Inc doing a great job. Rest feels pretty similar.

Dude we talked about this on Discord, you know whats up. There are like 4 or 5 different changes, but most important things imo is:

- Black Orcs have a 6 second party charge. CC immunity and 30% move speed for the whole group on the faction that has to hit the enemy's backline, or they lose.

- Due to a bunch of reasons, morale gain differential is a lot steeper now. I've been Bellowed before having my M2, i've seen Fort pushes where Order was just hitting M3s.

Destro should be more mobile and have faster morale gains, those things define the faction, but atm its overtuned. Pains of having an on-going balancing process.

Have you ever considered there aren't more pug leaders on order because you keep trying to make them into something more organized? You are teaching them a warband that isn't 2/2/2 and meta is not worth forming so they don't form one. You form giant stacks and move as a unit in the lake, why need pugbands then? you taught them to just mark the guild warband and follow. More organized dedicated players are always the extreme minority in any game and shouldn't forget that. A whole lot of rambling about pug life but none of actually letting them live. The idea that a private server of a long dead game with 1k players needs to be so competitive in an open game mode is honestly ridiculous.

I am by no means an expert in faction balance but I do like my statistics. Here's my take on point 1 of the OP; Destro > Order.

As other commenters already pointed out, examining balance in content smaller than wb v wb is not the way to go about it, since that is not the main balancing focus. So, looking at massive rvr balance between factions I'm surprised to see so many people here point to W/L ratio for LOTD or other kill data to prove their point. Here's why that is a really bad idea:
1. The results are not statistically signifant due to only having 10 or so days of data since the last balance patch.
2. The results are not statistically significant due to disparities due to population, organization and player skill between warbands from both sides.
3. The results are imbalanced due to class-related player agency.

The first 2 points can potentially be ignored when enough time has passed and by the influence of Xrealming guilds over time. We are very close to the last balance patch, however, and therefore they should not be ignored.

Let me elaborate on the third point though; class-related player agency.
By that I refer to the individual choice of us, players, when selecting which class we will play during our sessions. Ideally, I think most of us would agree that this should be a non-issue. But it is. And here is why:

Currently when speaking about a warband in META terms (most effective tactic available), both realms tend to gravitate towards classes that bring something unique and powerful in the mix. There are classes that bring that benefit for the whole WB (e.g. MSH's Pierce Defences or Blackguard's Crimson Death and Hastened Doom) and others that bring that for their party only (e.g. BW/Sorc & DOK/WP dmg procs, Chosen/Kotbs auras). The first category tends to take 1 spot in the META warband, while the others take 4 wb spots (1 in each party). This leaves little to no spots for the ''bad" classes (e.g. Magus, rSH, SW, WE, WH).
So, when a player decides to log in as one of those classes with the aim of playing in an organized warband, they are choosing to lower the effectiveness of that warband and, by extension, their faction. As I mentioned before, this should not be happening and all classes should ideally be at similar powerlevels in wb play. This can only be resolved by outside class balancing which I will not address now, but since the problem exists, let's examine how it affects Faction balance currently.

1. Destro has fewer "bad" classes/is more equally designed at the moment.

• Tanks: BO finally found a use in being a Move-speed increaser for parties and BG as mentioned above has some great AOEdebuffs

• Healers: Shamans synergise well with Choppas' Chop Fasta who in turn are prominently used as Mdps

• DPS: Sorcs are ideally wanted in all parties but Choppa, Mara, MSH (and in some cases WE) are all used. Magus and rSH are left out usually, but the later can easily respecialize to MSH

2. Order has power concentrated on fewer classes. Won't go in depth, but SM, IB, SW, AM and to a certain extent Engies and WHs do not bring out equal value to the other contenders for the same roles.

Does this mean that Order is weaker than Destro? No. Not really. It's just that players do not utilize the faction's strengths (that come in the form of classes they refuse/don't like to play).
In ideal setups Order are far stronger (imo). Here is a concrete example:

Killing someone is a game of numbers; the overall rate of dmg must be higher than the overall rate of healing towards that target from the moment their health drops from 100% up until it reaches 0%. The bigger the difference between the rates and the smaller their total health is, the faster/easier they will die.

• Let's assume that a party contains a KOTBS with Focused Mending tactic and a Warrior Priest using the ability Sigmar's Grace.
  That party will have 15% increased incoming heals and ~10% extra health pools.

• This means that an opposing Destro group will have to either somehow increase their dmg to their target by 15% of enemy heals or alocate more dps on that target to get the same rate of damage done.

• Since the WP wounds buff in in play, they will have to maintain the same rate of damage done for ~10% more time on the target.

On Destro side, the most comparable thing you can have is Chosen's 25% incoming heal debuff aura (KOTBS also has access to a 25% outgoing HD aura) and Blackguard's Hastened Doom tactic (which requires the ability to A. connect through block/parry and B. crit. Both chances can be lowered by Order by them investing in defensive stats).

To return to the topic; Order classes have the tools to fight equally (or even dominate combat, in my opinion). Due to class-related player agency they choose not to utilize them.

"Is it the fault of the players?"

No. Play whatever you like. Just expect results proportionate to the class you use.
Your faction is not underpowered. Your class is just not synergistic enough for wb play.
Balance patches should eventually equalize classes so that you are not punished for not playing KOTBS/RP/WP/Slayer.

Interesting you are saying Destro has the upper hand. Right now I see more and more the better or organized groups win most engagements. On the terms of population and pug bands. Order has pug bands, You have Red, SVG, Meatjuice, The problem that you are running into is timing and consistency. When Big Inc started to run we ran into a lot of pop issues and could only get about 12 to 18 man groups going. We kept going though and powered through it because we wanted to play. We ran our heads against Jempire, Ritri, Cross, and other groups who would roll us over. The more we played the better we got and the more our WB would fill in about 15 mins. People will go where the organization is. You need to prove you are going to be around consistently and prove yourself to them or people wont stick around. Its a tough thing for a leader to do especially when you are losing. Big Inc runs from 6PM EST to 9PM EST almost every night. We Run EU on the weekends and invite anyone to join assuming we have a spot. We are also willing to work with any Guild or WB leader at anytime. Shoutout to (Bene, HoB, Blood Moonz, Dantes Inferno, The Bitter End, Agony). If I left some folks out please forgive me.

Garamore wrote: ↑Mon Feb 05, 2024 12:49 pm What was in the last patch that had such an impact on order? Remember destros usual tactics got wrecked by removing gtdc, mara pull and other stuff earlier. Dont remember reading anything that made me think destro were now at an advanatage.

Destro doing better as NA destro seem to have got organised and Big Inc doing a great job. Rest feels pretty similar.

GTDC and mara pull nerfs is by far the greatest thing to happen in a long time.
Trouble is the recent patches also came with about 10 order nerfs.

gg.

Rotgut wrote: ↑Mon Feb 05, 2024 10:48 am

Garamore wrote: ↑Mon Feb 05, 2024 10:11 am
Yep server is destro dominated - destro clearly won the last city, lotd and got more kills....................................................

What are we talking about here, which active guilds are better or the pug experience? Cuz numbers matters for pugs. You forgot to show that Order got those kills despite having 46% of the population.

Pugs don't care about how many kills an organized WB got. Pugs care about how easy it is to find a WB to join and how much farm they get. And Destro outnumbers Order every day, they have more pugleaders and their Open WBs have an easier time blobbing, so pug life is just easier on Destro. I can join Perdutoi in the mornings, or log on the afternoon to join Zorbax and blob with Grufrip and Gigi, join Brutality or Roucmonte (he is Destro now) whenever either is around, i can log NA and blob with Big Inc. Can you name even one consistent pugleader on Order i can join? All i can do is log EU Prime and hope that one of the big guilds is around, and even so i'll be outnumbered.

All the kill numbers show is how reliant Destro is on Evil.

This is exactly what I see as a NA Order Pug player it has not always been this way but since the patching process for class balance began again in a meaningful way I have seen more and more Order players logging to Destro. On average during EU prime and lately also NA prime there are many more Pug WB leaders on destro than Order. Also more organized guilds that once played Order are currently playing Destro.


Order has good classes but is completely outnumbered both as organized and pug life. I know full well population fluctuates as I have seen it myself over the years. But right now the impression is this is predominately a Destro population server which can flututate to help order when Destro mains decide to play Order. But by and large it’s mainly Destro pop over order pop except for very late NA prime

That’s what I see in game as a pug player. I don’t see anyway to solve it. I just want a healthy server and fun had by all. I don’t see this improving until Order classes synergize more easily together like Destro does and more classes for order are warband effective / fun to play. Right now as Rotgut stated you have order meta of Knight, RP, WP and slayer. Other classes just not as effective for Pugs to use.

or awailable all addons for all, not secret using for wip.

On wb level
Organize order wb vs organize destro wb, orders side is superior
Unorganize/pug order wb vs pug destro wb, destro excel.
The thing is when you reach some critical mass of pugs they become the deciding factors. And being pug on destro is easier and more rewarding.

Paxsanarion wrote: ↑Mon Feb 05, 2024 2:52 pm

Rotgut wrote: ↑Mon Feb 05, 2024 10:48 am

Garamore wrote: ↑Mon Feb 05, 2024 10:11 am
Yep server is destro dominated - destro clearly won the last city, lotd and got more kills....................................................

What are we talking about here, which active guilds are better or the pug experience? Cuz numbers matters for pugs. You forgot to show that Order got those kills despite having 46% of the population.

Pugs don't care about how many kills an organized WB got. Pugs care about how easy it is to find a WB to join and how much farm they get. And Destro outnumbers Order every day, they have more pugleaders and their Open WBs have an easier time blobbing, so pug life is just easier on Destro. I can join Perdutoi in the mornings, or log on the afternoon to join Zorbax and blob with Grufrip and Gigi, join Brutality or Roucmonte (he is Destro now) whenever either is around, i can log NA and blob with Big Inc. Can you name even one consistent pugleader on Order i can join? All i can do is log EU Prime and hope that one of the big guilds is around, and even so i'll be outnumbered.

All the kill numbers show is how reliant Destro is on Evil.

This is exactly what I see as a NA Order Pug player it has not always been this way but since the patching process for class balance began again in a meaningful way I have seen more and more Order players logging to Destro. On average during EU prime and lately also NA prime there are many more Pug WB leaders on destro than Order. Also more organized guilds that once played Order are currently playing Destro.


Order has good classes but is completely outnumbered both as organized and pug life. I know full well population fluctuates as I have seen it myself over the years. But right now the impression is this is predominately a Destro population server which can flututate to help order when Destro mains decide to play Order. But by and large it’s mainly Destro pop over order pop except for very late NA prime

That’s what I see in game as a pug player. I don’t see anyway to solve it. I just want a healthy server and fun had by all. I don’t see this improving until Order classes synergize more easily together like Destro does and more classes for order are warband effective / fun to play. Right now as Rotgut stated you have order meta of Knight, RP, WP and slayer. Other classes just not as effective for Pugs to use.

some destro guilds didnt get in into lotd that why order win. byt mostly order is loosing in lotd(every lotd). and 1 time in year order win lotd . and ppl are pointing it here . how dare order win lotd
also order ranged get nerfed (order is anyway rdps biased - legolass worshipers) so mostly order side get nerfs. and mara has still has aoe knock down on demand. sw lost his st on demand. few times order win city because very possible destro hc logged order and farmed destro pugs.