Return of Reckoning

Uchoo wrote:A lot of you posting in here offer no perspective on what is being discussed and instead just try to derail the discussion with nonsense. Please try to stay on topic, and in a relevant manner.

Thoughts on Witch Hunter? I propose you make a different thread.

Now are there any thoughts as to why Blackguards should be the only tank to NOT have access to a knockdown while wielding a greatweapon?

I have none, I just like voicing my opinion if it's relevant on the topic. A blackguad is the #1 harrasser in the game. Give it a knockdown, he will no longer have any need for a shield. The shield is simply for guard damage blocking. If he is not the main tank, the blackguard will always run 2-hander with this change.

I say go for it. But I would test it because of the reasons I mentioned. Putting any class healer on the floor gives a blackguard a huge amount of time to load up enough debuffs and Ap shredding to take him out of the fight all by himself, granted he has the no-detaunt tacitc on and the healer must self heal for the next additional globals as he somehow tries to figure a way out of the predicament he is trying to deal with. I'd honestly like to see it in play. My job is saying, hey, make sure this isn't completely broad and sweeping to the role. In my imagination, this change would be a nightmare to deal with. Bring it on

Penril wrote: I believe Mez explained it quite well. Yeah at first i though "sure, give BGs a 2H KD" but Mez is right. BG with antidetaunt uses his KD on a RP. By the time RP gets up, he will be snared, out-heal debuffed, and his AP cost will be increased (not to mention all the damage he took since detaunt doesnt work on the BG). RP will be forced to try and save himself somehow. Basically BG just nullified completely a RP.

We love to complain about Destroy Confidence (removes 3 enchantments from target, does damage for each enchantment removed) because it "nullifies" Shaman healers (their HoTs are enchantments). But at least the Shaman has the option of using other heals. I think what BGs do to RPs is worse.

Suggestion: Change a TACTIC so it makes BoR act as a KD (Monstrous Ruin sounds about right). So BGs will be forced to replace either HD, FwF, SK or UF.

Just throwing out some ideas, i dont care about BGs anyway

Sure in a solo or random setting this might happen but in a coordinated setting where the rp has backup how likely is it that this will occur?

Furthermore should a group run a 2h bg, that means your second tank will not be as an effective guard for your mdps/ healers due to only having only parry to mitigate guard dmg.

(Sorry to throw out the 6v6 card, i feel its over used in the fourms as it is )

Having said that im down for a tactic change to make BoR into a KD; it was an angle i did not think of, monstrous ruin tactic is also unused and can eaisly be changed to specifications to make BoR into a kd

So idea wise it would mean you need to slot monstrous ruin which would change to make BoR into a KD

Should BoR require block/parry or hate then if it uses a tactic slot?

Mez wrote:
I have none, I just like voicing my opinion if it's relevant on the topic. A blackguad is the #1 harrasser in the game. Give it a knockdown, he will no longer have any need for a shield. The shield is simply for guard damage blocking. If he is not the main tank, the blackguard will always run 2-hander with this change.

I understand your point of view but I find it a little anecdotal. Sure a Rune Priest can't cleanse debuffs from a Blackguard, and that's annoying, but a Warrior Priest or an Archmage doesn't have the same issue.

In my experience on live with an Archmage, Anguish was annoying, especially with a super defensive Blackguard, but a guy running around with a 2H was no issue for my group because if he headed in my direction, he was easy meat for our dps.

My DoK cannot cleanse Punishing Knock from an IB, so if that defensive IB wants to sit on me with Punishing Knock and another healer isn't cleansing me, I just have to deal with it, yet when I am in a group, it's rarely an issue.

Regarding shields, they have far more relevance than Guard damage. It's an extra avoidance check from every type of damage in the game, and allows the use of Hold the Line, one of the best defensive abilities in the game.

Sorry - but unless any of you can actually prove that you have played, and more importantly, currently do play in an organized six man at ALL times... I just can't read anything you say and take it serious.

This should go without saying, but the game needs to be balanced around the ideas and opinions of the organized and self proclaimed elite (six man minimum....and also maximum as it were - because anything over 6 is just a 6 but in multiples).

TenTonHammer wrote:
Sure in a solo or random setting this might happen but in a coordinated setting where the rp has backup how likely is it that this will occur?

Furthermore should a group run a 2h bg, that means your second tank will not be as an effective guard for your mdps/ healers due to only having only parry to mitigate guard dmg.

BGs can have a lot of parry thanks to Anger Drives me. Of course, using it means they wont have enough points for all the Malice/Anguish toys. Which sounds fair: If you want more survivability as a 2H, then you won't be doing as much damage or have as many debuffs.

At rank 31 rr40 i can see BGs using this (if Monstrous Ruin is changed): http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... 3:;0:0:0:0:

No Elite Training, Crimson Death, Filled with Fury, Hastened Doom or Enraged Beating. Just debuffs + KD, with a less optimal Guard (due to low parry). Looks balanced on paper.

TenTonHammer wrote:
Should BoR require block/parry or hate then if it uses a tactic slot?

Imho, yes. It should still require parry/block.

I personally DON'T think it should require Block/Parry, it should just cost 15 hatred, but that's a point for contention.

And yes, any 2H build with Anger Drives Me doesn't have much else.

You could do this or this or any variation thereof, but as you can see, each has its distinct disadvantages.

It sounds like the real problem people face with BGs is when there is a shield not a two hander, giving BG to go two hander means they give up survivability and you don't get knocked down as long in favour of taking a little bit more damage from AA. Even if this happened, and BGs got a two hander KD, SnB DPS is still going to be the best way to play a BG... 5 second KD, all the aforementioned tactics, surviveabilty, and still tons of damage.

Also a BG only has so many tactics it can have at once...

Well that works for me then, monstrous ruin and blade of ruin become viable spec options and 2h bg gets a kd

3 birds with 1 stone

Now i wonder if az is willing to implement this

Gobtar wrote: SnB DPS is still going to be the best way to play a BG...

I would agree with this on paper, but I could be wrong. If this was changed, you would now have 2 reasons to use a 2H instead of one, outside of damage output.

Crimson Death is close to enough to sell a 2H build, more so with a knockdown as well, but Blackguards don't have any 2H exclusive tactics like Greatweapon Mastery or Oppressing Blows like most of the other tanks do.

I'm not saying that they necessarily NEED a tactic for a 2H, just offering perspective.

mursie wrote:Sorry - but unless any of you can actually prove that you have played, and more importantly, currently do play in an organized six man at ALL times... I just can't read anything you say and take it serious.

This should go without saying, but the game needs to be balanced around the ideas and opinions of the organized and self proclaimed elite (six man minimum....and also maximum as it were - because anything over 6 is just a 6 but in multiples).

Damnit Mursie, stop derailing this important discussion!

Seriously though, giving 2h BGs the BoR KD is certainly worth a try. We need the incentive to drop the shield. Crimson Death is not enough. It feels bad when you equip the 2h and piss away the longest KD in the game, hold the line and block chance for some higher white damage and Crimson Death.

Unlike the IB, where it feels fine to go 2h for GWM, Cave-in and even GBF.