Return of Reckoning

Tanks have no gap closing ability except sm m2 and depend on others to engage kiters. Tanks dont have detaunt.
The flip side to these failings is they have a higher snare uptime and better defence.

Telen wrote:Tanks have no gap closing ability and depend on others to engage kiters. Tanks dont have detaunt.
The flip side to these failings is they have a higher snare uptime and better defence.

Sprint + AP pot + snare

zabis wrote:

Telen wrote:Tanks have no gap closing ability and depend on others to engage kiters. Tanks dont have detaunt.
The flip side to these failings is they have a higher snare uptime and better defence.

Sprint + AP pot + snare

Kiters have the same option. If a AM/Shammy even better as they can use that ap to then drain.

GodlessCrom wrote: And a couple people have suggested -Toughness debuff instead of -armor. Does anyone know how much Toughness impacts the damage you take relative to armor? I.e. how much toughness should tanks, on average, lose to justify a str/ws buff, or a % dmg buff? And how does that compare to armor debuff? Obviously Toughness impacts all damage, not just phys, so could perhaps make 2h tanks even squishier when engaged by BW/Sorc/Magus (which already melt them)?

Blah, I wanted to provide a sophisticated calculation of how toughness works but blah. Let's say that for tank, the level of armor we can get is plenty sufficient to protect us from physical dps. So that the difference between 600 and 900 toughness would be low. Versus magic, resist are softcapped too low for them to give us the same protection and then more toughness makes a bigger difference. Toughness also provide a better protection agasint casters because the cast time coefficient is also applied to the mitigation our toughness provides. So iirc, the longer the cast, the more toughness is effective (i.e. vs magus and sorc).

@Anarchypark
Also, the main difference between offensive tank and mdps isn't total damage. I can outdps a dps in a 1 min span time. I can't burst half as good as any of em inside 5-10s. Sustain isn't equal to burst in a PvP game. + tank don't have incoming heal debuff which is the trademark of true dps and the single most effective thing to kill someone. Hence dropping armor to mdps level isn't a fair tradeoff.

Thanks Volgo. So a toughness debuff wouldnt impact our ability to tank melee/phys rdps that much, but would hurt against magic rdps?

Eathisword wrote: @Anarchypark
Also, the main difference between offensive tank and mdps isn't total damage. I can outdps a dps in a 1 min span time. I can't burst half as good as any of em inside 5-10s. Sustain isn't equal to burst in a PvP game. + tank don't have incoming heal debuff which is the trademark of true dps and the single most effective thing to kill someone. Hence dropping armor to mdps level isn't a fair tradeoff.

yes sustain dmg comes from survivality, that's the one that dps tank do better than mdps, already without FO
with FO you can have some kind of burst, losing survivality, less sustain dmg,
become mdps who don't have dps utilities, instead you have tank utilities which don't have much value to mdps role
that's cuz you choose tank at first place
now dps tank need more cuz they don't have dps utilities?
you can't just keep both damage and survivality
play some seesaw

my concern is mdps
you are asking a lot of mdps role as tank,leaving very small room for mdps
there should be some place that dps tank can't reach in sustain dmg
OR
put dps tank and tanky dps at same point about sustain dmg

so where is the right place for dps tank?
how far would dev allow it to invade dps role?

if tanks would perform mdps role more perfectly, give mdps the option to do tanks job too
more variety might good for game

GodlessCrom wrote:Thanks Volgo. So a toughness debuff wouldnt impact our ability to tank melee/phys rdps that much, but would hurt against magic rdps?

Dps/2h tanks are already weak vs magic/rdps so this would really change nothing

anarchypark wrote:

Eathisword wrote: @Anarchypark
Also, the main difference between offensive tank and mdps isn't total damage. I can outdps a dps in a 1 min span time. I can't burst half as good as any of em inside 5-10s. Sustain isn't equal to burst in a PvP game. + tank don't have incoming heal debuff which is the trademark of true dps and the single most effective thing to kill someone. Hence dropping armor to mdps level isn't a fair tradeoff.

yes sustain dmg comes from survivality, that's the one that dps tank do better than mdps, already without FO
with FO you can have some kind of burst, losing survivality, less sustain dmg,
become mdps who don't have dps utilities, instead you have tank utilities which don't have much value to mdps role
that's cuz you choose tank at first place
now dps tank need more cuz they don't have dps utilities?
you can't just keep both damage and survivality
play some seesaw

my concern is mdps
you are asking a lot of mdps role as tank,leaving very small room for mdps
there should be some place that dps tank can't reach in sustain dmg
OR
put dps tank and tanky dps at same point about sustain dmg

so where is the right place for dps tank?
how far would dev allow it to invade dps role?

if tanks would perform mdps role more perfectly, give mdps the option to do tanks job too
more variety might good for game

You talk a lot here about "dps tanks" and sustainability and what not

First off you'll never out damage a decent slayer/choppa running in red ever, espically not in a team environment

Secondly the role of a dps/2h tank is about utility or being while to do something better

2h chosen is about being able to better apply crippling strikes in an aoe BG is about debuffing crit and wounds, same with kotbs
IB provides you a reliable on demand KD etc
So from a design prespective that's what the intention of the. 2h playstyle was about, you trade the safety and utlity provided by a shield to further specify your role or gain acess to a better "something " though this design didn't always works like with sm where you trade a shield for a defense ability in. WODS or BO where nothing of relevance happens cause da big un is garbage

TenTonHammer wrote:

GodlessCrom wrote:Thanks Volgo. So a toughness debuff wouldnt impact our ability to tank melee/phys rdps that much, but would hurt against magic rdps?

Dps/2h tanks are already weak vs magic/rdps so this would really change nothing

Honestly I found that vs range/caster the best tool is to stack dodge/disrupt above 25%. I tried 500 toughness, 700, 900. The best always was with high disrupt.

@tenton
Agreed about the role of 2h tank. I'd even add that your main role is to be a decoy. In nearly all the scenario I play, I am a target. I get focused all the freaking time and its great. The main key is to balance offense/debuff/annoyance capacity with just enough defense that a focus fire will drop you low on health but not so much as being unhealable. So they keep targeting you, you survive and your dps can do their job unhindered. It's a fine line. Hence a stat tactic could help to play around that fine line. FO as is now, or as propose would not help in that regard.

The SnB tank is meant to be ignored while the dps take the heat, while he protects them. The 2H tank is meant to become the target and he then windwalks the fine line of being squishy enough to be a target but not so much as to put his team in trouble.
As far as guarding, 2H or SnB don't change much (50-60% parry will do the same job a shield will do). So most premade see the 2h tank as a more viable target than his guardee. My thought process anyway.

Eathisword wrote:
The SnB tank is meant to be ignored while the dps take the heat, while he protects them.

That would be the case but then we got cases like BO who can put out such respectable dmg to the extent that he cant really be ignore per say