Return of Reckoning

Krulgu wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:40 pm i will take a long nap from server don't worry, bored to all this **** joke

You should have been arround as it was 88% vs 12%... for destro. And now you cry cuz of 56% order?

What a joke...

nuadarstark wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:09 am

storm wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:11 am Ok now that mara aoe has been nerfed to wl values. Can we please have wl burst nerfed to mara levels? probably not, nerfs and buffs are only going one direction. We can't have fairness clearly.

Can we have maras mostro proc fixed and it's cc potential balanced with WL (especially without the lion as it's not used in cities and orvr)? Cause yeah, then we can have the WL burst potentional put on the lvl of mara.

Jesus people, mara was overtuned, even freaking Foofmonger outright stated it a week ago (and again here).

Not sure I agree on the part about WL not using their pet in oRvR and cities...In city is less used I could agree, but in oRvR those lions move in packs often (although is true that in oRvR they get melted, not so in cities/scenarios)
Regarding mara being overtuned I can't tell, I just remember it sucked bad in live

nuadarstark wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:09 am

storm wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:11 am Ok now that mara aoe has been nerfed to wl values. Can we please have wl burst nerfed to mara levels? probably not, nerfs and buffs are only going one direction. We can't have fairness clearly.

Can we have maras mostro proc fixed and it's cc potential balanced with WL (especially without the lion as it's not used in cities and orvr)? Cause yeah, then we can have the WL burst potentional put on the lvl of mara.

Jesus people, mara was overtuned, even freaking Foofmonger outright stated it a week ago (and again here).

Everyone agrees WL burst is OP , still nothing done about it. If you stack slayers like we were staking Marader, will they nerf slayer?? yea no, that's what I thought.

farng84 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:23 am

nuadarstark wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:09 am

storm wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:11 am Ok now that mara aoe has been nerfed to wl values. Can we please have wl burst nerfed to mara levels? probably not, nerfs and buffs are only going one direction. We can't have fairness clearly.

Can we have maras mostro proc fixed and it's cc potential balanced with WL (especially without the lion as it's not used in cities and orvr)? Cause yeah, then we can have the WL burst potentional put on the lvl of mara.

Jesus people, mara was overtuned, even freaking Foofmonger outright stated it a week ago (and again here).

Not sure I agree on the part about WL not using their pet in oRvR and cities...In city is less used I could agree, but in oRvR those lions move in packs often (although is true that in oRvR they get melted, not so in cities/scenarios)
Regarding mara being overtuned I can't tell, I just remember it sucked bad in live

Mara got a huge rework on live and was destros best class in patch 1.4.8. Rr100 marauders were unkillable and absolute hard hitting backload bursters.

I am not going to read thru all the replies but as to your why? about getting a nerf. Have you looked at mara damage numbers in city??? Choppa should be next. Its like u destro players are totally clueless about how ridiculously overpowered the melee aoe zerg is.

Nosun wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:14 am I am not going to read thru all the replies but as to your why? about getting a nerf. Have you looked at mara damage numbers in city??? Choppa should be next. Its like u destro players are totally clueless about how ridiculously overpowered the melee aoe zerg is.

By your logic slayer and BW should have been nerfed as they put much higher numbers than Choppa

Nosun wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:14 am I am not going to read thru all the replies but as to your why? about getting a nerf. Have you looked at mara damage numbers in city??? Choppa should be next. Its like u destro players are totally clueless about how ridiculously overpowered the melee aoe zerg is.

Have you seen slayer numbers in a Line by Line melle ball of hell? You do not suffer from class mechanics, but by composition. Over and Over and Over these points are made clear. The Order wins in city are by groups that understand this. Order is actually better. Can we pull some numbers on FORT defences? Maybe we should scrutinize some of that DATA? And make some nerfs accordingly? Sounds Fair?

storm wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:29 am

Nosun wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:14 am I am not going to read thru all the replies but as to your why? about getting a nerf. Have you looked at mara damage numbers in city??? Choppa should be next. Its like u destro players are totally clueless about how ridiculously overpowered the melee aoe zerg is.

Have you seen slayer numbers in a Line by Line melle ball of hell? You do not suffer from class mechanics, but by composition. Over and Over and Over these points are made clear. The Order wins in city are by groups that understand this. Order is actually better. Can we pull some numbers on FORT defences? Maybe we should scrutinize some of that DATA? And make some nerfs accordingly? Sounds Fair?

Said this a few times but I don't think balance should be done around cities. It's a scenario where not even all classes are welcome. Balance around normal scenarios/RvR would e more appropriate (and notably all classes find their role in these two options).
If something has to be balanced about cities is solving this exclusion issue. I fought some order premade where all healers were wp, they were just stronger (either that or all of these WP had godlike skills, which I find unlikely). A warband should not want such composition, that is my main issue.

teiloh wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:37 am Cry some more. Mara still effectively do more AOE damage than WLs.

You get balanced to an Order class and you act like someone put hot sauce on your pp.

It's about the same now TBH, but will vary upon gear level. The effective damage will depend on effective crit rate for the Mara/WL as the damage difference is basically now "20% crit chance and 50% crit damage" versus "25% more damage (equating to 37.5% more crit damage), and the tearing blade DoT.

Added all together over an X period of time (did the math yesterday but didn't write it down), the damage is like within 95% of each other, with some assumptions on CTBC. Basically, the higher CTBC crit an enemy comp has the better the Mara will be, whereas the lower it is, the better then WL will be. The Mara will likely do more damage against other DPS who isn't running high -CTBC, whereas WL's will probably end up doing more damage to defensive healers/tanks who run high negative CTBC.

Valarion wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:05 am I've just got done discussing these changes with 3 of the best marauders I know. These are very likely 3 of a small group of high RR marauders responsible for these changes.

After testing, they estimate the patches are around a 7-10% dps nerf overall depending on MP which is far lower than the 20-30% everyone is upset about. Its still significant and so I do understand some of the frustration here. Full disclaimer: I dont play a mara, I just let them beat on me.

These marauders did mention the nerfs actually place them back to a level equivalent to the WL damage coefficients. However, I was quick to point out that the ST (particularly the burst ST) of the WL is still significantly out of sorts. They mentioned the entire Savagery tree "needs help". Full disclaimer: I do play a WL.

So if the AoE coefficients of WL/Mara are equalized, then it only makes sense that the ST coefficients and/or the ST burst of the WL/Mara should be closely matched as well.

The thing about Mara/WL burst damage differences is that it's much less about the raw damage of the abilities, and more about the abilities themselves. Mara ST abilities have good coefficients and already do good damage.

The WL has better burst for a few reasons (assuming not Loner spec).

1. The pet damage is additional and helps the burst cycle (and some pet abilities don't trigger player GCD, like silence, so they can be frontloaded).
2. There are specific abilities that just do high levels of burst damage in the right situation (Coordinated Strike)
3. Pounce allows you to quickly and rapidly apply ones burst, and frontload it during the pounce animation.
4. Fetch being disjointed from the White Lion but being attached to the Lion itself allows the WL to use it as an additional CC tool in the burst cycle.
5. 2h autos are burstier than 1 autos (although somewhat mitigated by Brut proc).

But all in all, Mara ST damage is pretty good and comparable to a WL's. The real issue in doing a ST comparison is that the WL can just easily decide to burst a target down from 65ft away and immediately do that, whereas the Marauder has to telegraph their movements and run up to the target, which usually takes 1-4 seconds of time (assuming you don't get CCed), which is why it won't do the burst of the WL, unless it was given a dash.

TLDR: Single target is mostly already matched. The WL just has some design choices that give it better tools to frontload damage and the mobility to apply it on demand.

That being said, the Marauder's ST problem currently isn't it's burst damage. It's that the Marauders "debuff" mastery path (something not even mirrored to the WL, thanks Mythic for this awful 4 way mirror), is bad. It's bad because it's been systematically nerfed since 2008 into a point of complete irrelevancy, and no longer provides the level or strength of the debuffs needed to be a viable class. Unlike a tank class who debuffs, or other MDPS that debuff, a Marauder in Savagery spec only has one purpose, and that's to do "ok ST damage and debuff targets". They don't have all the normal tank utility such as guard, challenges, bellows, etc... They also don't do good (ST) damage for a damage class, so unlike other DPS who debuffs, if this stance doesn't function then it has no purpose. No other MDPS (or any DPS class) has a "debuff" mastery path, most classes are built in a way that their debuffs are scattered throughout the rest of their mastery paths.

The WL/Mara aren't 100% direct mirrors, and they don't need to be. They had very similar AoE abilities, so those definitely should be normalized. However, what the Mara needs is a functional savagery path, which isn't something you can look to the WL or reference the WL for, to balance (as the WL doesn't even have comparable abilities).

Let's put it this way. The Mara "Wounds debuff" is a 13 point ability in the mastery path that has been nerfed so hard its worthless. It's worse then what a BG can do, and barely higher value than the AoE wounds debuff on a chosen, debuffs on two tank classes that bring a helluva lot more utility. Aka, it's a worthless 13 point ability that there is no reason to bring to almost any situation besides 1v1 (and it's not even great there). The Mara is also the only DPS class (not tank/support) that has to use a tactic slot to get a 50% heal debuff. The Mara AP drains don't do much and are mostly ineffective as they are either nerfed (40 over 3 seconds isn't much with all the pumps around), or just designed poorly (-50% ap regen on a single target basically does almost nothing, again too many pumps around). So you basically have a mastery path which you spec for the same armor debuff the WL gets, and then a bunch of junk you don't want besides being forced to pick up a tactic to be able to ST heal debuff.