Return of Reckoning

Umm guys... Why not allow the true dpsers use thier debuff heals.... As dps classes norm spec it. Or if thier are other weakness the dok/wp have... Have other classes pick up the slack.

diedrake wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:44 pm Umm guys... Why not allow the true dpsers use thier debuff heals.... As dps classes norm spec it. Or if thier are other weakness the dok/wp have... Have other classes pick up the slack.

Something is preventing other classes from using their HDs when a DoK/WP is around? I don't understand your statement.

Snoxx wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:33 pm Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it's already possible to parry the healdebuff, despite being a no-damage ability.

Hmm, haven't noticed AoF being parried. Divine Shock for sure can be parried/blocked and I made a proposal to make it changed but I think that AoF is undefendable.

Umm guys... Why not allow the true dpsers use thier debuff heals.... As dps classes norm spec it. Or if thier are other weakness the dok/wp have... Have other classes pick up the slack.

I run Absence of Faith as I usually run solo - no group will take dps WP unless they can't find a filler.

Mystry wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:20 pm

Snoxx wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:11 pm A rather simple way to buff the wrath tree would be adding a damage component to the heal debuff. A low-end damage number is enough, just make it a damaging ability.

The result would be more chances to critically hit and thus more chances to proc AA haste and Guilty Soul.

As we just learned from the latest postings in this thread, the major advantage of DoK dual wield is having more chances to proc stuff. So what does the WP need to become competitive? More chances to proc stuff. See my suggestion above.

I swear to god, I'm going to get an aneurysm if someone mentions Guilty Soul again.

WRATH WP CANNOT FIT GUILTY SOUL INTO THEIR TACTICS. EVER. UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

Yes, yes, you are right. Forgive me.
I just mentioned it because it's part of the meta-discussion about dual wield DoK vs 2handed WP.

I know Guilty Soul and Soulfire are only useful for aoe farming pve mobs. Sad but true.
That's why I play grace spec instead of wrath spec.

My summary of the wrath tree is as follows:

3 points, Divine Justice: buffs something where DoK has a vastly superior version (including a similar tactic to buff it).

5 points, Soulfire: only useful for aoe farming pve mobs.

7 points, Intimidating Repent: must-have tactic for every melee WP.

9 points, Absence of Faith: finally a viable healdebuff, thanks to RoR devs. But still subpar to any healdebuff your groupmates can offer.

11 points, Guilty Soul: again, only useful for aoe farming pve mobs. (every WP player should try this once to see how great this is on paper, and then after doing PvE try it in PvP to see how bad it fails)

13 points, Hammer of Sigmar: a finisher where you wont see hits with >1000 damage unless your target is naked.

15 points, ... something new.

Now let's look at the synergies. Uhm, what synergies? I mostly see contradictions. Skills 5+11 can't be used together with skill 7 (aoe dots vs aoe detaunt). Skill 9 is a wrath ability but doesn't proc 11, despite 11 is supposed to proc from wrath abilities. The only synergy is the band aid fix on skill 13 to make the useless skill 5 a bit more useful. And the only ones who spec skill 3 are salvation-spec HEALER(!!) WPs because they are the only ones who can spare a tactic slot for this.

There is a reason why almost everyone was only grabbing the aoe detaunt and skipped the rest of the tree.

nailinthehead wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:53 pm I run Absence of Faith as I usually run solo - no group will take dps WP unless they can't find a filler.

The latter is what the devs try to change, and to make dps/melee WP worth being part of a group, they need to make his abilities worth using.

Right now, when a group searches for a dps class with heal debuff, they wont invite a wrath WP, because other dps classes offer a) better dps and b) better healdebuff.

A torture DoK also has lower damage than true dps classes, but at least he can offer a better healdebuff.

Absence of Faith is indeed good enough for solo play - but not good enough for group play.

Well, the state of dps WP pictures the fact, that my IB can output at least the same damage as my WP while being 2x more tanky and utilitarian. If tank can, without much effort and gimping its defenses, have the same amount of str and more ws than dps WP which defenses are minimal then something is surely wrong with the WP.

Hope that my post in proposals section will get some hearing among the devs. I believe wrath WP can be fixed without magic and client control.

Torquemadra wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:01 pm

Fallenkezef wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:20 pm

peterthepan3 wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:18 pm Grace is the defensive tree: a toughness buff, a parry buff, a wounds buff, stronger lifetap and Sigmar's Shield. Wrath has nothing in the way of defense enhancements, and with the new 15pt mandatory charge, you will be severely restricted in what you can get from Grace (as should be the case if we are arguing for a stronger Wrath).

Sounds like we need to break it down to basics. Look at each class's dps tree, establish what makes WP and DoK so different in dps and work from there

when you break it down dok get a dot and a heal debuff on crit tactic, WP get a 10s (duration and CD), on demand, incoming heal debuff and guilty soul, there is no huge discrepancy.

The potential for disparity is ability terms is the utility in celerity which is incredibly good and the cast time in soultfire which is incredibly bad but cant be properly fixed but as a band aid WP have accelerated intimation after using Hammer of Sigmar which cuts cast times by 50% which can serve to facilitate soulfire (and other things such as a fast rez).

Otherwise you have weapon disparities, DW means you can proc more from landing more hits and gain 10% parry, WP 2h gives +10% strikethrough against parry and block and lands larger AAs.

Its apples and oranges but there is no blatant power gap.

Exactly.

Snoxx wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:58 pm

Mystry wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:20 pm

Snoxx wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:11 pm A rather simple way to buff the wrath tree would be adding a damage component to the heal debuff. A low-end damage number is enough, just make it a damaging ability.

The result would be more chances to critically hit and thus more chances to proc AA haste and Guilty Soul.

As we just learned from the latest postings in this thread, the major advantage of DoK dual wield is having more chances to proc stuff. So what does the WP need to become competitive? More chances to proc stuff. See my suggestion above.

I swear to god, I'm going to get an aneurysm if someone mentions Guilty Soul again.

WRATH WP CANNOT FIT GUILTY SOUL INTO THEIR TACTICS. EVER. UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

Yes, yes, you are right. Forgive me.
I just mentioned it because it's part of the meta-discussion about dual wield DoK vs 2handed WP.

I know Guilty Soul and Soulfire are only useful for aoe farming pve mobs. Sad but true.
That's why I play grace spec instead of wrath spec.

My summary of the wrath tree is as follows:

3 points, Divine Justice: buffs something where DoK has a vastly superior version (including a similar tactic to buff it).

5 points, Soulfire: only useful for aoe farming pve mobs.

7 points, Intimidating Repent: must-have tactic for every melee WP.

9 points, Absence of Faith: finally a viable healdebuff, thanks to RoR devs. But still subpar to any healdebuff your groupmates can offer.

11 points, Guilty Soul: again, only useful for aoe farming pve mobs. (every WP player should try this once to see how great this is on paper, and then after doing PvE try it in PvP to see how bad it fails)

13 points, Hammer of Sigmar: a finisher where you wont see hits with >1000 damage unless your target is naked.

15 points, ... something new.

Now let's look at the synergies. Uhm, what synergies? I mostly see contradictions. Skills 5+11 can't be used together with skill 7 (aoe dots vs aoe detaunt). Skill 9 is a wrath ability but doesn't proc 11, despite 11 is supposed to proc from wrath abilities. The only synergy is the band aid fix on skill 13 to make the useless skill 5 a bit more useful. And the only ones who spec skill 3 are salvation-spec HEALER(!!) WPs because they are the only ones who can spare a tactic slot for this.

There is a reason why almost everyone was only grabbing the aoe detaunt and skipped the rest of the tree.

I love the word synergies here so straight to the point - kudos!

I came across a post by a balance moderator stating, a melee WP be that healer or DPS must have the AOE detaunt. Now if that is the case (and I tend to agree) where is the choice for melee WP's. DPS must have Fanatism, Divine Fury, AOE detaunt, AA Haste and a melee healer must have Fanatism, Divine Fury, AOE detaunt, Grace of Sigmar. Where is the choice?

The problem with Guilty soul in PvP is a very low healing return, as it's based directly on the damage a tick does. It could be a good idea to up the damage or it could be a good idea to adjust the % of healing done pr. damage. Tweaking one way or the other might make it viable, however, we are still stuck with the problem of simply not having tactic slots available. This is because of the sad META that surrounds the class, so again I suggest you look into making synergies within each tree so tactics, skills etc. compliment each other.

The 2-handed AOE detaunt default was actually giving WP's a choice for that last spot.

May I suggest you look into taking the AOE detaunt of the skill tree and replace it with another tactic then tie a specific buff to this tactic so that it has syngergies with the DPS prayer. Give the AOE detaunt as a default on 2-handed and allow it to be used as a tactic if you choose to go onehanded. This gives the 1-handed freedom of choice and opens up a tactic slot for the 2handed.

Again the point is to create synergies that become stronger the more commit you are to a tree.

Our problem is we can give you the devs 1000 ideas but most of us will not know if its possible within the current code. Not sure if you're even interested in taking other ideas to your table. But I'm sure if you are, there would be plenty of people willing to meet you on voice to discuss and most of all listen and learn what can actually be accomplished within the code.

/Wosh

You all say it like the WP is the only career that requires you to run the same 4 tactics with no options for diversity to be viable- aside from a solo roaming WH and WE, it's the same for everyone else.

In order to make the AE detaunt a base ability they'd have to change it so that it only lasts 5-15 seconds and has a CD of at least double the duration of the detaunt to match that of a dps career- not counting the choppa/slayer, which have a 5 second detaunt on a 30 second CD. ...no dps career has an aoe detaunt that they can continually keep up without the use of a tactic.
So.... 5-15 second ae detaunt with 10-30 second CD unless you slot the tactic so you can keep it up 100% of the time.

catholicism198 wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:47 pm You all say it like the WP is the only career that requires you to run the same 4 tactics with no options for diversity to be viable- aside from a solo roaming WH and WE, it's the same for everyone else.

In order to make the AE detaunt a base ability they'd have to change it so that it only lasts 5-15 seconds and has a CD of at least double the duration of the detaunt to match that of a dps career- not counting the choppa/slayer, which have a 5 second detaunt on a 30 second CD. ...no dps career has an aoe detaunt that they can continually keep up without the use of a tactic.
So.... 5-15 second ae detaunt with 10-30 second CD unless you slot the tactic so you can keep it up 100% of the time.

So you want WP to have a crap detaunt AND do no damage AND have no survivability? Why not just delete the Wrath tree entirely at that point.