Return of Reckoning

Posted: **Sat Jul 10, 2021 12:56 pm**

Escape would be perfect if they restored Focus Mind live capacity to not be effected by non-morale abilities like interrupt. When combined with immunity one should be totally immune to anything except Champions Challenge (from live) and that is just a root so you can still cast for 9 full seconds.
I know many people do not agree with this, but it would help a lot I think. The implications would be fairly large but it would help with numerous healing DPS, and could require more balancing afterward for example if it enabled DPS to be too powerful.

PS, also another difference from live that would help casters a lot is to get rid of hard interrupts from punts. I don't think that was on live, either. So this would mean a channeling ability would continue when punted. The argument with this is that Punt is too powerful as it is an interrupt and punt in one ability - Punt already prevents casts from starting and depending on the tank punt, it could easily be 3-4 seconds of missed time (including above point of interrupting FM cast sequence)

2c

Posted: **Sat Jul 10, 2021 12:59 pm**

dalen wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 11:27 am
Caduceus wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:31 pm
CountTalabecland wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:26 pm

Sorc/BW are very good in ranked.

This claim is not supported by the leaderboards.
really?

No offense to the Devs but probably only way this is happening is organized group play, it's well known that ranked matches are a total crapshoot if you play fairly.

And all the sorcs that have played a bit in solo ranked season 2 seem to have pretty good win/loss ratios:

Posted: **Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:21 pm**

Im still withholding my jugement mostly untill i see Hao, Svarz and Frozenoverbb how they will do on their BWs before i fully conclude my judgement of the potential of how BW will do in solo ranked.
But i can put down some words of why i will not even queue on mine, simply because you need to beat extra layers of RNG before even going into the match just based on your own teammates and your comp.
Sorc have their spirit rotation provided by themselves. But BWs are still having a big portion of their timestamp being Elemental, which order doesnt have a debuff for. So you need a Knight to resist debuff for you to make your total timestamp reach a point where you deal enough to be leathal.

On top of that Order tanks seem to not provide as much support-dmg as destro tanks, so more responsability for bringing the burst is on Order DPS classes. If you combine these two factors of resist schools and responsabilities for bringing the burst, you are putting the BW class in a very rough spot for this enviroment where casters can be focused and shutdown easily with lack of selfpeel and no pressure wheile being focused.

Sorcs doing well atm is mainly down to good sorcs are actually queueing, but that might be illustrated best with how few Order RDPS are queueing. Most range vs range matchups goes in the favor of the sorcs, and the order mdps line to pressure the ability to freecast have a Bugged Pet for the WL and stanceswapping bugs for ASW, While WH has pretty much one sticking tool compared to WE having an extra minipounce, letting pretty much the overrepresented slayer being the main shark for sorcs, but slayers have pretty much 1:1 gabclosers to sorcs limmited kiteing tools.

So you end up with sorcs being able to freecast in most situations, and eventually their burst will connect and secure a kill.
(for reference Gravord streamed a 6v6 friendly scrim with Smash and you could hear on comms how often a sorc rotation was comming and how 9/10 it didnt do more than 30% total dmg of a target for spending 7sec freely unloading)
If you get to freecast like that, yes stuff will eventually die when the enemy is caught off guard. Brightwizards rarely get to freecast like that vs sorcs, magus, rsh, WE, mara, and twohanded tanks who actually deal damage.

It simply cant be ignored that Brightwizards are not even bothering queueing right now, and those who does are struggling with the extra layers of matchmaking they need to beat before the games even begin. And honestly why would you queue on BW with these criteria and cercomstances? There are already good ST BWs on the leaderboard with 0-4 and they have given up.

Posted: **Sat Jul 10, 2021 2:25 pm**

Bombling, a couple points:

1. Yes, Sorc time-stamp can focus heavily on Spirit damage, but Sorc cannot rely on time-stamping alone to kill targets. Sorc needs sustain as well, and Corporeal damage through Chillwind, Ice Spikes, Absorb Vitality (and I run Chilling Gusts, personally) is at least as important. At reasonable level of play you cannot simply expect your team to bring targets into range of your time-stamps without providing sustain yourself.

My point; do not overstate the importance of elaborate time-stamps, because these wombo-combos do not work in a vacuum. Moreover, in practice the instances where the stars line up and you're able to get off a full combo are rare (LoS, cc, cleanses, etc.) and often not as decisive as one would hope.

2. I do not believe that Order rDPS is not at least as viable as Sorc in Ranked (with exception of BW, perhaps). Every rDPS class needs to know what to do when they get caught. Against good teams, rDPS classes will get caught all the time, and that includes Sorc. Every rDPS class has access to the same toolkit that Sorc has for escaping: M2 Focused Mind + Flee. Every other rDPS class except Sorc has tools that help to keep them safe. Ranked 6v6 is a team effort, so there is a big role for the rDPS's team in this regard, which isn't always acknowledged.

You state that Slayer and Sorc go 1 for 1 in terms of escape options, but I do not know where you get this from. Slayer has snare/root immunity + Charge. Sorc has Flee? Every class has Flee! If mDPS don't want to use it for reasons, then that is their own fault for not wanting to use all the tools at their disposal.

Posted: **Sat Jul 10, 2021 3:01 pm**

Caduceus wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 2:25 pm You state that Slayer and Sorc go 1 for 1 in terms of escape options, but I do not know where you get this from.

Sorc tools career tools: Morales (Magebolt/focused mind), Aoe root.
additional tools: Flee+Ap pot, Snare potion, Quickescape renown points.

Basicly im thinking: Since basicly the ranged snare on sorc is never really used as a snare but as a timestamp component for damage due to the akwardness of 2sec cast for a snare.
Aoe root = Snarebreaker 1:1
Flee vs flee 1:1
Potions vs potions 1:1
Focused mind/ magebolt vs Charge 1:1 but not a pure trade as it often comes along with flee useage.

ofc its not a perfect 1:1 trade in gabcloser vs kiting tools. And in a team enviroment you have to deal with other people at the same time. But when i say slayer is the "easiest" to kite for a sorc its taking into concideration stuff like WLs who have pull, m1 root, charge, pounce etc. Vs just slayers having Charge and snarebreaker.

As for the rest of your post i agree with your overall message. Sorcs are by nomeans having it easy, and when those order classes get fixed i think sorcs will get a little closer to standard rdps winrates as their natural preditors will stand a better chance of exposing the lack of kiting tools on BW/sorc.

As I mentioned earlier in this topic, I honestly think the Core ability aoe root on sorc/BW just need to be looked at and turned into a real selfpeel tool.
I actually cant think of a single situation during my time of playing RoR where someone has ever called on voicecoms for "root!" and it being a gamechanging moment in neither warbandplay, scenarios, city or while watching streams for 3 years. Aoe root is just garbage in its current version, and it is the core ability defining these mage classes at lvl 10 when others get Charge, Stealth, Guard. just to put things into perspective of key defining core tools for an archtype.

Posted: **Sat Jul 10, 2021 3:34 pm**

wonshot wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 3:01 pm
Sorc tools career tools: Morales (Magebolt/focused mind), Aoe root.
additional tools: Flee+Ap pot, Snare potion, Quickescape renown points.

Basicly im thinking: Since basicly the ranged snare on sorc is never really used as a snare but as a timestamp component for damage due to the akwardness of 2sec cast for a snare.
Aoe root = Snarebreaker 1:1
Flee vs flee 1:1
Potions vs potions 1:1
Focused mind/ magebolt vs Charge 1:1 but not a pure trade as it often comes along with flee useage.

I don't agree with this representation and this is why:

A typical Slayer will use his snare/root immunity + Charge and at that point what can a Sorc do?

Flee? Possible but risky, since Flee costs all morale meaning that Sorc's one true escape tool M2 Focused Mind, is unavailable. Get caught after a premature flee and you'll enjoy a minute of being wailed on. Potentially a game-losing mistake. Not to mention, you just dumped all your morale. What happens if the Slayer also uses Flee + AP pot? You're caught with your pants down.

Magebolt? Possible but risky, for the same reason using Flee is risky.

Focused Mind? Only after being caught, at which point yes, it is your one and only means of escape.

Being charged essentially costs you all your morale by default. Not saving Focused Mind is potentially a game-losing mistake. Of course in practice you will have tanks that are hopefully skilled enough to help with this, but this is the bottomline if we talk Slayer vs. Sorc.

Grip of Fear (root) is barely worth mentioning in this context, because the Slayer will have popped his immunity. If they have not, and you manage to land the root, they virtually always have entered melee range and snared you, which in Ranked means you're caught anyways. And of course AoE roots have other issues, but these you have addressed.

This is why I do not like the statement that Slayer and Sorc go 1:1. I think Slayer is clearly at the winning end of this exchange.

Caduceus wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 2:25 pm
As I mentioned earlier in this topic, I honestly think the Core ability aoe root on sorc/BW just need to be looked at and turned into a real selfpeel tool.
I actually cant think of a single situation during my time of playing RoR where someone has ever called on voicecoms for "root!" and it being a gamechanging moment in neither warbandplay, scenarios, city or while watching streams for 3 years. Aoe root is just garbage in its current version, and it is the core ability defining these mage classes at lvl 10 when others get Charge, Stealth, Guard. just to put things into perspective of key defining core tools for an archtype.

Agreed.

Posted: **Sat Jul 10, 2021 4:42 pm**

wonshot wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 3:01 pm
Caduceus wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 2:25 pm You state that Slayer and Sorc go 1 for 1 in terms of escape options, but I do not know where you get this from.
Sorc tools career tools: Morales (Magebolt/focused mind), Aoe root.

First error. You either use aoe root or magebolt,. one give immunity to the other making it reduntand and useless (good luck kiting a WL btw)

additional tools: Flee+Ap pot, Snare potion, Quickescape renown points.

all can do it

As for the rest of your post i agree with your overall message. Sorcs are by nomeans having it easy, and when those order classes get fixed i think sorcs will get a little closer to standard rdps winrates as their natural preditors will stand a better chance of exposing the lack of kiting tools on BW/sorc.

As white lion in pathetic gear (vanquisher) in both rvr or scenario, as soona s i see a sorc is basically a free kill unless she's VERY babysitted (like guard+2 healers on him all time): feline grace+force opportunity+healdebuff and ka boom! (i believe is same the other way around with mara to BW?)

As I mentioned earlier in this topic, I honestly think the Core ability aoe root on sorc/BW just need to be looked at and turned into a real selfpeel tool.
i believe the opposite: the game has too many cc already and if you cc a sorc you give punt immunity and reverse, makin sorc/bw roots totally garbage skill

I actually cant think of a single situation during my time of playing RoR where someone has ever called on voicecoms for "root!" and it being a gamechanging moment in neither warbandplay, scenarios, city or while watching streams for 3 years. Aoe root is just garbage in its current version, and it is the core ability defining these mage classes at lvl 10 when others get Charge, Stealth, Guard. just to put things into perspective of key defining core tools for an archtype.
100% agreed

Posted: **Sat Jul 10, 2021 4:54 pm**

Comparing abilities 1v1 in a 6v6 match of wekest link

Posted: **Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:37 pm**

Bozzax wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 4:54 pm Comparing abilities 1v1 in a 6v6 match of wekest link

wether you compare in 1v1 6v6 12v12 or rvr are still dogshit.

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