Return of Reckoning

Ragnaroek93 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 7:33 pm

Rabenfeder wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 3:09 pm I now know over 10 people who left the game as newbies for exactly this reason. Because they are simply victims and the game is no fun that way.
In PvE you get killed even if you are the same level because of overly strong NPCs and an absurd spawn rate.
In RvR you are just a victim as a newbie.
Group searching doesn't help either. I counted this week and in 10 hours I either didn't get into 47 groups or was kicked out pretty quickly. The first reason given was that they had too many DDs but needed healers. Then I switched and tried it with my healer in the same group and then they said they needed more DDs.
The truth was, though, my reputation rank was too low for the WB.

Yes, there may be other groups, and yes, a lot of it is because the game itself doesn't explain much and you just don't really know what you're doing.
But if a Witch Hunter does over 7,000 damage with three attacks and a White Lion doesn't need any more attacks, then something is wrong with the game.
The same goes for the five Elven Mages who single-handedly killed an entire WB full of smaller players on Friday evening.
If I see an Order player in RvR, I go offline these days; the fight isn't worth it and yes, I realize that newcomers to the Order side feel the same way.

I've started RoR with 3 friends and two did quit relatively fast. And my other mate and myself haven't logged in to the game since a week either and we're trying out War Within instead (already almost catched up with like 5-10 hours of playtime in PvP, haven't done a single dungeon or raid in the last 3 season which I've played). I honestly don't see how RoR gearing system is sustainable without allowing new players to be on an equal playing field. Almost no new player will continue playing after reaching lvl 40 with how it currently and works and they won't recommend the game to others either. Which is quite sad because no other MMO offers a similar RvR experience (the closest game is ESO and the PvP there is an unplayable lag fiesta during prime time and has awful combat).

tromat wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 3:25 pm

Rabenfeder wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 3:09 pm I now know over 10 people who left the game as newbies for exactly this reason. Because they are simply victims and the game is no fun that way.
In PvE you get killed even if you are the same level because of overly strong NPCs and an absurd spawn rate.
In RvR you are just a victim as a newbie.

If you buy the set according to your current lvl and put all talismans, sub 40 can absolutely hold their ground. But it's a concept not all newcomers known sadly

As stated earlier, that's simply not true (unless your definition of holding your ground means getting carried by others). I did very well in pre level 40 scenarios - had almost always top healing in 95% of the cases and was close to 60% winrate despite not queuing as premade and also had the feeling that I was able to carry a lot of games. After level 40 I feel like literal trash lol. Got killed in 3 shots by a rank 84 SH who has a 35% winrate in scenarios, like lol.

I agree wholeheartedly. I tried to get multiple friends into this game yet none have stuck around past lvl 16-30ish. Such a shame. I hate how many people will blindly defend this as if it's a good thing for the game too. I guess that's what happens when you only play this game for such a long time. Nobody has time for all that bs when there are better options out there for a good PVP experience.

All those session crap "MMO"s really spoiled people.
You're not supposed to be equal to veterans from start, you gradually learn aspects of game and gradually rise in power. Stop asking for handouts and basically full sov gear from start.
Play only one character and you will be surprised how fast you will skip all the way to 40 lvl.

Florian90210 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 9:42 pm All those session crap "MMO"s really spoiled people.
You're not supposed to be equal to veterans from start, you gradually learn aspects of game and gradually rise in power. Stop asking for handouts and basically full sov gear from start.
Play only one character and you will be surprised how fast you will skip all the way to 40 lvl.

There's a difference between not being equal to veterans and getting roflstomped in 3 hits from a bis geared "veteran" with a 30% scenario winrate. And I am level 40 and I'm weaker now than I was with bolstering (which was already too weak for RvR but fine in scenarios) lol. It's almost like the "session crap MMOs" where the outcome is decided by player skill and not the gear are way more popular than having to invest an absurd amount of time for a game with a tiny playerbase.

Florian90210 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 9:42 pm All those session crap "MMO"s really spoiled people.
You're not supposed to be equal to veterans from start, you gradually learn aspects of game and gradually rise in power. Stop asking for handouts and basically full sov gear from start.
Play only one character and you will be surprised how fast you will skip all the way to 40 lvl.

You're delusional. Some people even if they are new are way way more skilled than BIS geared veterans and only get sh1t on because the veteran is gear carried. Skillsets and mechanics learned from other games can carry over to another game easily. Regardless of the game some people will always be more skilled than others; that is just reality.

This game has less than 1k Players on the majority of the time. Keep that childish mindset and ignore the real issues and see how long this small playerbase game actually keeps on going. Death of a Thousand Cuts. That is it's future as it stands. Get some perspective and stop being so condescending. This is supposed to be a PVP game where you PVP 24/7. Skill should ALWAYS take precedent over gear.

I guarantee you the majority of the playerbase are gear carried or zerg carried bots that would get absolutely obliterated in a real small scale PVP scenerio where you actually have to use your brain and get punished for poor positioning and lack of game knowledge. (Especially since this is the case in most MMO's if not most PVP games)

The only way this game survives is if the gear gap is closed and the individual player's Skill and Knowledge levels are the only thing that determines which player is the better player.

tromat wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 3:25 pm

Rabenfeder wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 3:09 pm I now know over 10 people who left the game as newbies for exactly this reason. Because they are simply victims and the game is no fun that way.
In PvE you get killed even if you are the same level because of overly strong NPCs and an absurd spawn rate.
In RvR you are just a victim as a newbie.

If you buy the set according to your current lvl and put all talismans, sub 40 can absolutely hold their ground. But it's a concept not all newcomers known sadly

Expecting a newcomer to know how to optimize the bolster is so out of touch it's bordering on comical. And even if they knew how to, a perfectly twinked rank 30 dps is still going to be killed in seconds by one that's rr80.

A new player doesn't even know how and where to buy new gear, what stats should be optimized for, how/where to get talismans, etc., etc., etc.

Florian90210 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 9:42 pm All those session crap "MMO"s really spoiled people.
You're not supposed to be equal to veterans from start, you gradually learn aspects of game and gradually rise in power. Stop asking for handouts and basically full sov gear from start.
Play only one character and you will be surprised how fast you will skip all the way to 40 lvl.

The spoiled people are the veterans who want to keep getting unfair fights vs undergeared newbies handed to them on a platter. Imagine trying to learn chess, but every game you're matched against someone 500-1000 MMR higher than you AND you start without a queen.

georgehabadasher wrote: ↑Wed Apr 09, 2025 3:09 am

tromat wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 3:25 pm

Rabenfeder wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 3:09 pm I now know over 10 people who left the game as newbies for exactly this reason. Because they are simply victims and the game is no fun that way.
In PvE you get killed even if you are the same level because of overly strong NPCs and an absurd spawn rate.
In RvR you are just a victim as a newbie.

If you buy the set according to your current lvl and put all talismans, sub 40 can absolutely hold their ground. But it's a concept not all newcomers known sadly

Expecting a newcomer to know how to optimize the bolster is so out of touch it's bordering on comical. And even if they knew how to, a perfectly twinked rank 30 dps is still going to be killed in seconds by one that's rr80.

A new player doesn't even know how and where to buy new gear, what stats should be optimized for, how/where to get talismans, etc., etc., etc.

Florian90210 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 9:42 pm All those session crap "MMO"s really spoiled people.
You're not supposed to be equal to veterans from start, you gradually learn aspects of game and gradually rise in power. Stop asking for handouts and basically full sov gear from start.
Play only one character and you will be surprised how fast you will skip all the way to 40 lvl.

The spoiled people are the veterans who want to keep getting unfair fights vs undergeared newbies handed to them on a platter. Imagine trying to learn chess, but every game you're matched against someone 500-1000 MMR higher than you AND you start without a queen.

You have a really good point and it begs the question, just how many of them would get absolutely obliterated by some noob in this game that is with experience in other MMO's that is a generally good PVP player if there was no gear gap.

I have a feeling it would be a pretty high percentage seeing as there are way way way harder MMO PVP games that people who are good could come to this game from and absolutely destroy veteran players that are used to being gear carried.

PVP is supposed to be about Skill, not who has the most shiny piece of gear or the most zerglings to hide behind. Don't get me wrong, RVR can be fun but the best PVP will always be Arena or Battleground type PVP hands down.

Once you get too far past 10v10, PVP devolves into who has the most coordinated premade or bigger group, which IMO is boring af and practically skilless.

My suggestion as an alternative to adjusting the item gap is adjusting the rewards. If a player with high-end gear kills a new level 40 player, they shouldn't receive any reputation points or points for weekly quests, because that was neither an achievement nor worth rewarding. If the gear gap isn't so high anymore, then the reward could be 50%. If someone now says that the incentive for veterans is gone, they're essentially confirming that they themselves only pick on weaker players because the item system doesn't work.

@george @ragnaroek wrong target here guys.

I was just factual here, and i defend a bolster buff or easier mechanics everytime on RoR official discord, last time was yesterday.

I said it's not intuitive to know you have to have full updated set and talisman inside, and that we should buff bolstering to help player retention. Heck, thats why i created warcamp.com, to help newcomers

Rabenfeder wrote: ↑Wed Apr 09, 2025 7:08 am My suggestion as an alternative to adjusting the item gap is adjusting the rewards. If a player with high-end gear kills a new level 40 player, they shouldn't receive any reputation points or points for weekly quests, because that was neither an achievement nor worth rewarding. If the gear gap isn't so high anymore, then the reward could be 50%. If someone now says that the incentive for veterans is gone, they're essentially confirming that they themselves only pick on weaker players because the item system doesn't work.

Yeah, killing undergeared players is way too highly rewarded on the server. Though I think that killing anyone in RvR should give at least token renown. In addition, it might be fun to include the average CR/RR of the players the killboard leaders have killed (monthly, weekly, all-time).

tromat wrote: ↑Wed Apr 09, 2025 7:22 am @george @ragnaroek wrong target here guys.

I was just factual here, and i defend a bolster buff or easier mechanics everytime on RoR official discord, last time was yesterday.

I said it's not intuitive to know you have to have full updated set and talisman inside, and that we should buff bolstering to help player retention. Heck, thats why i created warcamp.com, to help newcomers

I know you're a defender of new players, but I think it's misleading and unhelpful to point that out in this context because the bolster is basically useless for helping new players compete with established veterans.

Rabenfeder wrote: ↑Wed Apr 09, 2025 7:08 am My suggestion as an alternative to adjusting the item gap is adjusting the rewards. If a player with high-end gear kills a new level 40 player, they shouldn't receive any reputation points or points for weekly quests, because that was neither an achievement nor worth rewarding. If the gear gap isn't so high anymore, then the reward could be 50%. If someone now says that the incentive for veterans is gone, they're essentially confirming that they themselves only pick on weaker players because the item system doesn't work.

Ranked SC stay empty, but weekend SC full of 80+ BiS premades. But match them with each other is wrong, match them with fresh 40 and solo players instead is right. Probably 20-30 players every week play some Ranked SC - thats all competitive community on the server.

Cut rewards is old logic from times when this game was onLive, instead rise rewards for opposite situation is modern logic.

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Current optimized(not the best, but close to it) progression:
- 1-16 oRvR + SC, personal preferences(in oRvR scout and kill quests are easy little boost)
- 16 get Keeper set, skippable if have no friends to help
- 16-39 run SC(better weekend SC),make some contribution in oRvR(for bags and genesis from it) and all scout\kill quests for war crests, optional - farm Mayhem and Ruin to save some war crests
- 35-36 start to run Gunbad for RedEye to get ready for City Dungeon, or buy Conq gloves+boots from AH and rest from gold bags+vendor
- 36 buy 2-3-4 genesis jewelry
- 40 stop enter SC, buy genesis/sc weapons, finish conq ward, city dungeon+beastlord-hanters valley(is ValeWalker good for class), 1 run BastionStair if class need weapon from it
- at this point "base gear" setup equipped and oRvR is ok, but still avoid SC and City Siege, optional - get Vanq with Conq scheme
- complete Invader ward, for some classes bloodlord pieces is a BiS before Sov

Ofcourse with best available tali and potions and with +25% renown potion active.

What wrong?
- from 16 oRvR it's not a friendly place, for some time it's place for leeching
- from 40 SC is a dead end till BiS, it's possible to fight as "base gear" premade(but at least 60rr+) or mix with BiS, but it is not so welcome
- fresh 40 has to complete his homework and does some pve for better results
- need practical knowledge about game and server
- need 500-2000 gold

And all of this just for mitigate gaps in power. For old players it's ok, like X years ago was ok to get sov only from city siege. For new players it's a lot of tips, tricks and suffering to reach point where he start feeling soil under the feets.

What to do with it? Shorter progression to "base gear" or split players to chunks based on cr and rr. Second way greedy to new players on daily basis. First can be solved in different ways, like cheaper pvp gear untill vanq(included), example: same price but with option "upgrade from prev gear with cost in delta" will cut pvp gear progression from 3300 war crests to 1700 war crests to equip vanq with no pve.