Return of Reckoning

Nekkma wrote:The mechanic is useless for pure healers and unless the lifetap heals are greatly improved, like beeing the best heal to cast most of the time when you have filled the mechanic, this change would only buff speccs which does not need it.

Lifetap heals already need improving, with or without a mechanic change. Once a mechanic change has been tested that would be the next logical thing to look at. Isha would get the mechanic benefit you are talking about and Vaul would get the help it desperately needs.

Minerva wrote:

Nekkma wrote: This suggestion seem to mostly buff the dps Shaman/AM, which I guess is no surprise as the mechanic already kind of works for them. Allowing them to cast a heal with full conversion seems to powerfull in 1vs1. The mechanic is useless for pure healers and unless the lifetap heals are greatly improved, like beeing the best heal to cast most of the time when you have filled the mechanic, this change would only buff speccs which does not need it.

As much as I'd love that for a healing AM, OP is right about it making the DPS spec too powerfull with full heal every 3 dmg spells.

So, maybe... this MIGHT be a bad idea but hear me out...
What if we keep the 5 points, but instead of keeping it a hybrid mechanic, we just grant an extra crit %/lower cast time/extra stats after every 5 casts?

So, I cast a healing spell 5 times, and the 6th heal spell has an extra perk + then the counter resets to 1 point again?
I know it goes against a hybrid mechanic but i think it would improve the healing mechanic and DPS would get a lil something out of it too?

Just gimp the healing on self accordingly with the buff, I really don't want to see AM/Shamans's ability to be good in groups thrown under the bus because it would make them too good at 1v1.

Nekkma wrote:Allowing them to cast a heal with full conversion seems to powerfull in 1vs1. The mechanic is useless for pure healers and unless the lifetap heals are greatly improved, like beeing the best heal to cast most of the time when you have filled the mechanic, this change would only buff speccs which does not need it.

Couple of points here:

1) We will not accept 1on1 as a blocking argument when discussing group or warband scale, ever. We will consider how to mitigate the impact of any change on 1on1, but further unbalancing 1on1 is considered acceptable to us if we cannot think of a way around the issue.

2) This is a question of intent, and I'm looking at the classes as they were originally designed. Therefore, RP/Zealot is a healbot, AM/Shaman is a ranged hybrid and WP/DoK should be melee healers. I do not see any problem with the mechanic being useless to a pure healing or pure DPS AM or Shaman if they refuse to take advantage of its benefits. That's absolutely fine with me.

If you feel that pure DPS AM/Shaman gains too much out of the mechanic when played selfishly, then that's fine. We can just change the mechanic to neutralize itself on heals if the target is the caster. It's not a roadblock.

Lastly, I hope nobody's going to come in telling me that DPS or heal AM and Shammy are somehow meta specs outside of 1on1. As I've already mentioned, we won't let arguments based around 1on1 stop modifications to a class to increase their viability in group and warband scale.

Jaycub wrote:The mechanic change as you proposed will be nice but, now I don't see it solving really any problems. We will still be doing no real meaningful healing just more frequent fluff. I think the most important changes should come via changes to the leech HoT, balance essence/ I'll take that, and the 13 pt leech for each class. For the latter, the problem is we don't have enough points to get it with all the necessary utility. Making puddle core, or possibly swapping the leech with the silence in the trees could alleviate that. Not sure how some people would feel about losing that silence for the AoE leech tho.

I agree. The mechanic changes I propose are only to deal with the failure of the current mechanic to achieve its objective, which was to promote using both aspects of the class instead of just one. I acknowledge that other changes are required and especially to the lifetaps, which I see also as a means of giving DPS AM some useful contribution to the team rather than having it be thoroughly resented. I would be happy to see powerful lifetaps which either were not able to affect the caster at all (preferred) or would have a major reduction in potency when used on the caster, to restore some of the balance in 1on1.

Jaycub wrote:I'm also interested in where you think the hybrid AM/shaman's place is in the meta should be compared to grace WP/DoK. And are these the only "hybrid" classes? Or is there any plans to create other hybrids, maybe like DPS tanks that play a different role from def tanks etc...

As already mentioned, I view AM/Shaman in the same general light as I view DoK/WP, in that their current specs are a gross violation of what they were originally intended to be. In the case of DoK/WP, this overpowers them; in the case of AM/Shaman, it means that we either have an underperforming healer or an underperforming DPS that only heals itself but ruins small-scale engagements. I view fixing the mechanic as the first real step to sorting the class out, and that means that using it must provide concrete benefits to both healing and DPS specs. This ties in to what you mentioned about fluff damage - I view the future advantage of running heal AM/Shaman as the ability to DPS for a period when required at the cost of AP and heal opportunity. Therefore, the mechanic MUST be worthwhile to use. The lifetap aspect is a fallback for that.

Minerva wrote:As much as I'd love that for a healing AM, OP is right about it making the DPS spec too powerfull with full heal every 3 dmg spells.

So, maybe... this MIGHT be a bad idea but hear me out...
What if we keep the 5 points, but instead of keeping it a hybrid mechanic, we just grant an extra crit %/lower cast time/extra stats after every 5 casts?

So, I cast a healing spell 5 times, and the 6th heal spell has an extra perk + then the counter resets to 1 point again?
I know it goes against a hybrid mechanic but i think it would improve the healing mechanic and DPS would get a lil something out of it too?

As previously stated, I am in favour of a complex mechanic instead of ditching the whole idea because of 1on1 or DPS AM sustain concerns. We have a simple solution in only granting the stat transferral when the target is not the caster. I really don't want to see the mechanic changed into something that promotes healbotting, because we already have a class based around that principle.

Sigimund wrote: Lifetap heals already need improving, with or without a mechanic change. Once a mechanic change has been tested that would be the next logical thing to look at. Isha would get the mechanic benefit you are talking about and Vaul would get the help it desperately needs.

Lifetap heals will be situational for a healer and never reliable (unless we assume un-defendable and healing based on premitagtion dmg). As I see it, this proposition is targeted for dps and hybrid but does not solve any of the problems with the healing shaman and AM.

The shaman AM has three distinct specclines (healing, dps and hybrid). I am not in favour of a mechanic change which removes that distinction. If hybrid should be viable, fix Da Green and Vaul (and so on with healing and dps).

Azarael wrote:

Minerva wrote:As much as I'd love that for a healing AM, OP is right about it making the DPS spec too powerfull with full heal every 3 dmg spells.

So, maybe... this MIGHT be a bad idea but hear me out...
What if we keep the 5 points, but instead of keeping it a hybrid mechanic, we just grant an extra crit %/lower cast time/extra stats after every 5 casts?

So, I cast a healing spell 5 times, and the 6th heal spell has an extra perk + then the counter resets to 1 point again?
I know it goes against a hybrid mechanic but i think it would improve the healing mechanic and DPS would get a lil something out of it too?

As previously stated, I am in favour of a complex mechanic instead of ditching the whole idea because of 1on1 or DPS AM sustain concerns. We have a simple solution in only granting the stat transferral when the target is not the caster. I really don't want to see the mechanic changed into something that promotes healbotting, because we already have a class based around that principle.

Ok. If there is a way of keeping both the hybrid aspect and AM being viable as a healing class then I'd be all for it
I just hope the healing will still be viable for group play. But w/e the community/devs want.
I'll have to adapt

Nekkma wrote:The shaman AM has three distinct specclines (healing, dps and hybrid). I am not in favour of a mechanic change which removes that distinction. If hybrid should be viable, fix Da Green and Vaul (and so on with healing and dps).

You know as well as I do the original intent of the AM/Shaman class, and this is very clear through both its current mechanic and pre-launch marketing. Appealing to the mastery trees being split makes no sense.

Minerva wrote:Ok. If there is a way of keeping both the hybrid aspect and AM being viable as a healing class then I'd be all for it
I just hope the healing will still be viable for group play. But w/e the community/devs want.
I'll have to adapt

The key here is that nobody is suggesting making any nerf to the current AM/Shaman healing, assuming a pure healbot. The classes only stand to gain.

Feidam wrote:Unless I misunderstood the only dps boost would be in for the healing AM and only for short periods of time ie 3 casts if they were to use all the force built up. Let's be honest here a healing AM rarely has the time to stop throw out 3 dps spells and continue healing. A 3 GCD time period is enough time that some just died if the healing AM stopped healing that long.

Dps AM wouldn't really see a dps boost in his suggestion but they would have small periods of better heals to assist the healers.

Agree. If I want to be a pure healing AM, which is exactly what I am, we need to be more competitive than we are now and not at the bottom of the barrel. Imo, DPS AM's do not need any kind of buff, I think they do fine as they are. It's the pure healing AM's that need help. I rarely ever have time to cast ANY dps spells much less 3 of them.. except maybe in the extremely ridiculously rare situation where there are like 8 heals in a scenario.. which I think may have happened twice in the 8 months I've been back. And even then, probably half of them were dps spec anyway.

Azarael wrote: You know as well as I do the original intent of the AM/Shaman class, and this is very clear through both its current mechanic and pre-launch marketing. Appealing to the mastery trees being split makes no sense.

The key here is that nobody is suggesting making any nerf to the current AM/Shaman healing, assuming a pure healbot. The classes only stand to gain.

The specclines make more sense too me than a percieved original intent (which was abandoned quick by mythic because it did not work). As I played a full healbot shaman as main from headstart until servers closed, I have quite a different oppinion about what the class was and should be. In my mind, the shaman/am should be viable as pure healer, pure dps and hybrid, not making the entire class hybrid.

I am worried that some much needed fixes to shaman/am healing will be a mechanic fix that mainly focuses on the other speccs.

I love the proposed idea by Azareal. I prefer hybrid classes to begin with which is why I was drawn to the AM back when the game launched. The mechanic just didn't fulfill it's intended purpose. Azareal's idea helps that IMO.

The players are ultimately the ones that need to change. A lot of this community expects anyone that has a heal to be their pocket healers and if you use any skill that isn't a heal you are a crappy/selfish player that only thinks of themselves. If the manage to make the AM/shaman what they are supposed to be and get the WP/DoK to actually be melee healers I'll be thrilled.

Nekkma wrote:

Azarael wrote: You know as well as I do the original intent of the AM/Shaman class, and this is very clear through both its current mechanic and pre-launch marketing. Appealing to the mastery trees being split makes no sense.

The key here is that nobody is suggesting making any nerf to the current AM/Shaman healing, assuming a pure healbot. The classes only stand to gain.

The specclines make more sense too me than a percieved original intent (which was abandoned quick by mythic because it did not work). As I played a full healbot shaman as main from headstart until servers closed, I have quite a different oppinion about what the class was and should be. In my mind, the shaman/am should be viable as pure healer, pure dps and hybrid, not making the entire class hybrid.

I am worried that some much needed fixes to shaman/am healing will be a mechanic fix that mainly focuses on the other speccs.

Mythic's problem was the refusal to adjust a class's mechanic when it didn't work. Oh the WP/DoK can't get enough essence then let's give them a chalice/book instead! Is just one example of that refusal. They refused to tone down the BW/sorc repeatedly because they have backlash! Guess it never occurred them to change that part too.