Return of Reckoning

Noiree wrote:Set a gold limit. No player can have more than 3-5k gold. Still a huge load of gold yet it wouldn't pay off anymore to set up those abnormal prizes in AH.
All the righteous farmers still have their gold, the exploiters don't have that much of an advantage.

I was thinking more about around 100g. You can still spread gold around characters and have 2k per account if youre a farmer but would limit the stupid ah prices.

Alright, after reading through all of this thread now (daaaamn, on the one hand its really annoying, on the other hand really interesting, one hurray for economy!) and being concerned with the entire situation for the last days now here goes...:

I'll try to start chronological:

• G-R Gear being fully competitive

After checking up that statement I, personally, have come to the conclusion that it's not accurate.
To make things a little simpler I'll chose the example of a Hauberk (BG) on all variations.
The G-R Hauberk has less armor than the Deci and significantly less armor than the Bloody Hauberk.
Regarding the stats it is not that much less than Bloody, granted. But the armor alone makes a big difference for tanks, as the difference in G-R <-> Bloody armor already makes a difference of ~2,3% relative armor reduction. Add that up to several pieces of equipment and youre at roughly 10% more relative damage-reduction.
And if you want to go with some dps, you take the Decimator-Set, which also offers more armor plus the 14 Str, that already makes up 1,4 Auto-attack damage and 2,8 Ability damage (should my infos in stats be a little off, please forgive me, but you get the point). And I didn't even consider the blue items like BQ or "...Decayed" or "...of the Lady".
So seeing as some people claim that a "lack of skill" leads to loses and not the fact that youre minour-equipped is kind of offensive and arrogant. Please cease to claim that G-R is a competitive option.
I did not compare equipments for non-tank or even robe-classes yet. I suppose it's analogue, but even if it wasn't it just shows that some classes are better off than others.

• Rare items and all the ruckus

First off, I find it hilarious that some people claim that "you should just farm it, its no biggie". I personally and some acquaintances and friends have been farming lairs for months now, and got nothing but jack. In the end you're left with no option but to actually pay for it. Either you're spending hours and hours to wait for it, seeing as it has a respawn-window of 2h after 2h, or you're being kicked out by order-zergs after waiting said time and the mob not respawning. Very frustrating and not really supposed to happen, since yes, it is a PvP-game, but it is also set on the foundation of at least nearly equal population. Since Order was zerging for several weeks, maybe even months, now it is kind of a drag and really hard to get your stuff even if you invest some time. Please don't give me any charts or stuff like that on the matter, since everybody experienced it, and X-Realming seems to be going big atm. So those charts are most likely inaccurate.
So yes, the rare items should be more expensive, no doubt. That the prices at the moment are outrageous is a fact we don't need to discuss, since it is true obviously. If you look at the price-gap between G-R and Bloody it is still rather bearable. But looking at the price-gap between the best green and the first blue items it's just ridiculously big.
Furthermore I reat this comment by OldPlayer about Engineer-Helmets and how they make you rich within 5 minutes. This is not true, seeing as I also own a BG and searched for a BQ helmet for a long time and have yet to achieve one. I suppose it is the same with Engineer-Helmets and if you actually found one you would be insane to not sell it for a higher price than the other BQ-items that appear more often. Given that we have a working economy of course, which we do not have at the moment.
If I did you any wrong there or missed an intended, more general view there, I beg your forgiveness OldPlayer

Additionally all the comments about BQ and equal gear being omitted by the time t2 hits might be true, but not relevant either. Since yes, everybody will go for different stuff, but the imbalances in the economy will simply shift from BQ and Decayed to other items. So your items are not labeled Bandit Queen or Decayed anymore. So what? That's not going to solve any of the currently intact nuisances. The richest of the rich will still be able to buy them off at higher prices and any normal human mind would be insane to decline a higher payment. So BQ sells for a "mere" 50~100g then, but the "new ****" will simply take its place, maybe even rocketing prices higher. So yea, as far as I'm concerned it's talking a lot without saying much. Theres still the possebility that I missunderstood something, though. No hard feelings.

• RoR is not about farming (?)

My attention got drawn to some people that actually complained about farming people and that WAR is a PvP-game. My point of view on this matter might be infamous, but it is about farming at the moment. And not really much else.
At leats if you want to be successfull in the lakes and SCs.
It is an Alpha-state and you can't expect everything to work. I'm on the DEVs and many other's side on this. But farming is currently the essencial component on this server.
You want better gear? Get your ass up and farm.
You want money because your gear doesn't drop? Get your ass up and farm. (This is true even in inflation).
You want to be successfull? It's simple, really. Farm.
Since enemy players do not drop anything and quests are currently rather unstable currently farming is the way to go.
I am aware that this is no Korean/Japanese MMO, where farming is in the job description, but as facts are at the moment you got no other option and PvE is what takes a major role here. It might be different in the future, when endgame-gear is granted via the sets like Obliterator, which already has 3 components instead of only 2. But at the moment it's the state of affairs. Deal with it and stop ranting.
I get the point of Azarael in this matter, that it's an Alpha and you probably shouldn't put too much hopes and effort into farming. But what other way is there when quests come back just to be broken some hours later again? Even if you concentrate on the PvP, youre not going to go far, simply because the equip you might receive by killing BO-guards and their Medals only fills up 2 slots.
And another matter in that regard, Azarael: Shouldn't depleading nuisances like this, that are basically gamebreakers since every game needs a healthy economy, be one, if not the priority in patches/fixes? It DOES feel a little like youre shifting off the blame a little too easy, though of course you can't be held responsible for other people's greed/stupidity there is at least a partial... "fault" is too hard a word. But maybe responsebility to oversee such crucial issues?
Throwing in people that want to honestly sell their found items and make some gold to provide for themselves with those that supply the exploited gold isn't really helpful either, since the sellers usually don't know where the money comes from. Saying they profited off of the exploiters and basically claiming theyre just as bad should not be the way to go.
I don't mean to sound like a ****, I hope i expressed myself not too offensive, since it's in no way meant that way.
So to use your words: Did you seriously think people would spend their time in PvP when theyre outnumbered or outgeared or on anything else but the only thing that brings you further? Of course people gather money to either gear up or be prepared for future equipment because they have foresight and the wish to compete in PvP.
Generally speaking and not considering the current state of infla-fairs.
So yes, if you don't want to end up a Punching-Ball, as so gloriously stated by another user earlier, you are simply out of options but to farm and hope for the best, since drop rate are a nightmare.
I, as a passionate farmer who frequently gets bored of it though, feel offended by exploiters as well, since they omit my hard work and time I invest here. Even if I wanted to counter the exploit-/inflation-influence with the 2k gold I farmed over the last months I would simply be pulverized by the sheer amount of gold my "opponents" can muster up, since they receive within minutes what I worked for for months.
The statements that I, as a farmer and fair-trade retailer, profit off of exploiters is not neccessarily true either. Seeing as I joined rather late (somewhere February if I remember correctly) it is only natural that there are some people that have beyond 1k gold and I can sell to at higher prices. That an exploit is involved never occured to me, since money-supply simply starts to grow within the system after a given time, and people that sell their stuff gather other people's money, which is still a fair trade-off. Those people that paid for their gear then start to farm again and gather more money in return. All within healthy limits and in a moderate pace of course, which currently is not given anymore, admittedly.

• The funny ideas

Ideas like "clear the server of AH and trade" are outrageously mislead. As I stated earlier every game needs a healthy economy, and the AH and trade are tools of said economy. Implementing ideas like this only leads to frustration and leaving users.
It is like demanding to delete the chat to avoid spamming.
Other ideas like "wiping chars completely" and such are equally as usefull, given that they are ommitted once a reset takes places with foregone exploit-fix.

• Lets finally get to the point, shall we?

The only way to actually balance the economy is to find the exploits, fix them and reset gold. Since it's basically a real life-economy the only way to reduce inflation is to take money out of the system. The tool here is a gold-reset. I've been trying to buy off items in the AH and sell them for lower prices, which only lead to richer ppl buying and selling them off for higher prices again. The real way to go, after a long consideration, would be to buy off all the stuff in the AH and sell it for 9k gold or more again, to concentrate the money one a few characters.... and then burn it.
Since that is astronomical and exploiters will have more money than anyone else anyway, this is a pain in the neck and utopia.
The people that hoarded gold are probably already or almost fully equipped anyway and the stuff that is missing mostly is not gainable by gold. So they shouldn't be hurt as much and will be able to farm again right after a reset.
Building up money then is, as earlier explained, a long process.
If you farmed untill 5g for example and another person did so as well, its 10g on the server. If you sell your rare item for 5g again you are left with 10g and the other player with none. But farming will go on and rare items will keep being found. In the end trade goes back and forth (I omitted some steps since I assume it is obvious) and money will return to the server, balancing itself according to demand and supply and the willingness of the players, etc. You get the point. I wasn't around the last time there was a gold wipe (from what I hear), but if the exploits are closed and the economy is granted a fresh start it'll grow slowy but steadily and moderate. In the end it'll grow healthy unless new exploits appear, where the community has to work together and individuals have to reason their greed.
That opportunities for exploits won't appear again is indeed the DEVs responsebility. Should anything go wrong on that front, it is up to the community to have some foresight and the well-being of the server at heart.
If the gold reset comes, dear devs, please keep in mind that it's useless unless you wipe the grey trash-items as well. Because wiping the gold is nice and all, but if people still have stacked up items (taking the info from a screenshot in another thread) that go around like 6k (?) items on one stack, and maybe 1 silver per item.... do the math, they will be instant-rich again after a gold-reset. A gold-reset alone doesn't help the server.
A even more radical option would be to cleanse the server of blue items as well, since I got the info that older players farmed the lairs pretty frequently and have some BQ-helmets and stuff stored as well.
Conclusively I come to the point: Gold reset alone is useless. If exploiters still have what made them rich stored somewhere and can sell it to the vendor instantly after their gold is gone the reset will have done nothing but upset other, honest players.

• Lastly, a request in a personal matter:

Nalgol, your idea about deleting lvl12+ equipment won't change anything either, since they didnt and dont break the economy. Me and some acquaintances are farming those frequently and want to be prepared for a rumoured cap-increase. Punishing players with foresight and some knowledge in arbitrage would be a real ****-move =/
Especially since theyre not usable, dont sell for more than 50g usually and dont harm anybody. Keep the scale of their worth/price in mind before considering actions like this please.


I don't raise claims that this post is fully and utterly complete and other ideas/overread posts might come back to mind later on, but that's what I gathered so far and "spontaneously". I'm pretty sure I forgot a lot of stuff I wanted to add while I actually wrote it, but hey, I can still add it later, no?


Corhall

Corhall

Truly a good and informative post. I agree 100%.

Best regards

Corhall wrote:And another matter in that regard, Azarael: Shouldn't depleading nuisances like this, that are basically gamebreakers since every game needs a healthy economy, be one, if not the priority in patches/fixes? It DOES feel a little like youre shifting off the blame a little too easy, though of course you can't be held responsible for other people's greed/stupidity there is at least a partial... "fault" is too hard a word. But maybe responsebility to oversee such crucial issues?

The unfortunate truth is that we can't fix what we're ignorant of. Nobody came forward and told us the mechanism of the exploit, they just abused it. Steps to reproduce are vital for something like this.

Corhall wrote:If the gold reset comes, dear devs, please keep in mind that it's useless unless you wipe the grey trash-items as well. Because wiping the gold is nice and all, but if people still have stacked up items (taking the info from a screenshot in another thread) that go around like 6k (?) items on one stack, and maybe 1 silver per item.... do the math, they will be instant-rich again after a gold-reset. A gold-reset alone doesn't help the server.
A even more radical option would be to cleanse the server of blue items as well, since I got the info that older players farmed the lairs pretty frequently and have some BQ-helmets and stuff stored as well.
Conclusively I come to the point: Gold reset alone is useless. If exploiters still have what made them rich stored somewhere and can sell it to the vendor instantly after their gold is gone the reset will have done nothing but upset other, honest players.

This is absolutely true, especially now that the idea is out.

Devs, be brave. Remove the incentive for players like Corhall and his friends to frequently farm - even farming items that are not even usable in game yet. As a self-confessed frequent farmer Corhall is no doubt very well geared and has reached a personal goal of being competitively geared - see http://www.returnofreckoning.com/armory ... me=Corhall - but it seems still feels compelled to go PvE farming instead of competing in RvR/PvP and playing the game how the large majority of ppl would wish it to be played.

If it was me I'd wipe all current PvE BiS Gear and rework it to be available via vendors and purchase with RvR medallions (mostly player kills, BO cap, zone lock, etc.). I know that there's a restriction with loot drops and getting deathblows but players in parties already share RR/INF on a player kill so I do not imagine sharing out some medallions will take much extra.

It would already help if the Lairs only drop Blue stuff on a regular basis, instead of the tons of useless green items. If you get ~2 blue items for each Lair kill everyones going to get their BiS gear in a decent amount of time without too much of a grind. Allthough i really like the idea of buying more stuff with medallions

Vaul wrote:Devs, be brave. Remove the incentive for players like Corhall and his friends to frequently farm - even farming items that are not even usable in game yet. As a self-confessed frequent farmer Corhall is no doubt very well geared and has reached a personal goal of being competitively geared - see http://www.returnofreckoning.com/armory ... me=Corhall - but it seems still feels compelled to go PvE farming instead of competing in RvR/PvP and playing the game how the large majority of ppl would wish it to be played.

Why is it so important to take away incentives to farm? Since the chosen is maxed out there simply IS no incentive for me to participate in oRvR/SCs as much anymore, since there is no gain for me. Of course I enjoy the regular brawl like everybody else, but would prefer to do that on other chars that I am currently using in PvP-related components.
And since, as you pointed out well, I have a personal interest to actually be as well equiped as possible, the only way to do so at the current point in time is to farm. I'm sometimes standing 1h or more useless in a lair to wait for the farm, and I fail to see how that is a bad thing or should be incentive-reduced. If I want to be geared up, that's my right as player and nothing to worry about.
And I'm actually wondering atm why farming with foresight and preparing for a pending (?) cap-increase is a bad thing, out of all the reasons I listed above.

Vaul wrote:If it was me I'd wipe all current PvE BiS Gear and rework it to be available via vendors and purchase with RvR medallions (mostly player kills, BO cap, zone lock, etc.). I know that there's a restriction with loot drops and getting deathblows but players in parties already share RR/INF on a player kill so I do not imagine sharing out some medallions will take much extra.

And how do you suggest to do that? The server is supposed to stay "as close to the real game as possible". Which would completely screw over that principle. Not to mention all the scripting work it would take.
I'm studying in that direction and dare say that I have some basic understanding of programming languages. Consider that a "simple" do-while loop for SCs that would fix how many people/faction can join an SC takes a rather long time to implement I suppose adding a feature like you are suggesting would take even longer. What you are suggesting is another utopia.

noisestorm wrote:It would already help if the Lairs only drop Blue stuff on a regular basis, instead of the tons of useless green items. If you get ~2 blue items for each Lair kill everyones going to get their BiS gear in a decent amount of time without too much of a grind. Allthough i really like the idea of buying more stuff with medallions

That would indeed fix the situation on a short-term basis, but answering inflation with inflation.... tricky.

I know its a delicate subject, but if overall the droprates were to be fixed and a good amount of blue/BiS gear was in circulation it wouldnt matter if some ppl have hundreds of gold, since everyone will simply trade gear for gear, which is imo more constructive than the gold-model. it is definitely no solution for later stages of the game, but it would lessen the grind, gives new chars easier ways to obtain their gear and its even acknowledged that the current droprates are too low. im aware of the fact that it will still upset the ppl who have farmed their stuff the long and hard way, but the drops should be higher anyways. problem is: you will _always_ upset a bunch of ppl, no matter what you change

Bunch of pathetic people on here. Just wipe the damn gold/sellable items. Screw those grinding day in day out (in alpha idiots), they are not what makes the game.

Also goldcap per account is a great solution (the lower the better). Being able to trade items, both people coming out of a deal with satisfaction, also creates a friendlier environment in-game.

Granted, droprates should be increased.

Offtopic, great work on server stability and reducing of lag!

Corhall wrote:Why is it so important to take away incentives to farm? Since the chosen is maxed out there simply IS no incentive for me to participate in oRvR/SCs as much anymore, since there is no gain for me. Of course I enjoy the regular brawl like everybody else, but would prefer to do that on other chars that I am currently using in PvP-related components.
And since, as you pointed out well, I have a personal interest to actually be as well equiped as possible, the only way to do so at the current point in time is to farm. I'm sometimes standing 1h or more useless in a lair to wait for the farm, and I fail to see how that is a bad thing or should be incentive-reduced. If I want to be geared up, that's my right as player and nothing to worry about.
And I'm actually wondering atm why farming with foresight and preparing for a pending (?) cap-increase is a bad thing, out of all the reasons I listed above.

We must just have wildly different opinions on what RoR is supposed to be then... imo the incentive and the gain is in doing the pvp/rvr itself, not farming pve and then going "aah finally my Chosen's in BiS gear, let's shelve him and start farming for the next toon". If you want to do that then, as you say, it's your "right" as a player, but that gear shouldn't (imo) give you an edge in pvp. It seems to be the same divide with, for example, Oldplayer - people who think farming/pve should be a core/important/required part of the game - even when that affects pvp - and those who don't.

Corhall wrote:And how do you suggest to do that? The server is supposed to stay "as close to the real game as possible". Which would completely screw over that principle. Not to mention all the scripting work it would take.
I'm studying in that direction and dare say that I have some basic understanding of programming languages. Consider that a "simple" do-while loop for SCs that would fix how many people/faction can join an SC takes a rather long time to implement I suppose adding a feature like you are suggesting would take even longer. What you are suggesting is another utopia.

That's actually closer to the original game isn't it? You could do pvp from lvl 1 and never have to farm a thing, you just had to get your lvl/rr and influence up by doing pvp. There were instances and later on LoTD etc obv (which I still never really liked) but at least it meant getting a group and working with other players, rather than just endlessly killing the same pve mob. As for the technical difficulty, I can't comment as I have no idea but I'd assume you're right.

Corhall wrote:

noisestorm wrote:It would already help if the Lairs only drop Blue stuff on a regular basis, instead of the tons of useless green items. If you get ~2 blue items for each Lair kill everyones going to get their BiS gear in a decent amount of time without too much of a grind. Allthough i really like the idea of buying more stuff with medallions

That would indeed fix the situation on a short-term basis, but answering inflation with inflation.... tricky.

Increasing the supply of BQ gear =/= economic inflation.